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Why are drugs illegal?

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Superman
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« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2011, 16:53:47 PM »

There is always someone that wants to tell other people what to do.

I strongly believe in individual rights. If I want to take a drug it is none of governments business.

E.g. when I was younger I considered supplementing with testosterone. I did a lot of research and found that when not abused it could be used safely. Anyway my only concern was quality and price. There is no guarantee that the stuff you buy on the black market are what they say they are. Some stuff aren't even human grade but meant for animals. Then there is the huge price.

My skeptical nature got to me. I was to worried that they will sell me the wrong stuff that I eventually decided not to buy the stuff.

Now that I am older I have grown out of wanting to be so very muscular. Sometimes I think it would be nice. I am just not prepared to buy something on the black market.

But does anybody know how we can change this?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 20:14:25 PM by Superman » Logged
bobilus
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« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2011, 02:24:51 AM »

I do believe some drugs should be made legal like dagga, magic mushroom ecstasy ect. Just the income from taxes on these would justify it. There is however drugs I believe should stay illegal were the positives of the drug is greatly out weighted by the negatives like Tik and heroin. These are both highly addictive and very damaging to the human body, exp meth mouth. Cocaine for me is on the line it can go either way legal or illegal.   

I do also believe there is a false sense of the advantages of smoking dagga found within the dagga smoking community. Almost all scientific papers on the advantages found that dagga has no great advantage over placebos. The problem no study have been done on the long term effect(20 years +) of dagga use. Here I think by just looking at all the tar components found in dagga that long term use will be worse than the smoking of cigarettes. One think they always say is you cant overdose on dagga, yes but you cant overdose on cigarettes either but it def not good for you. I believe dagga should be look at the same as cigarettes and alcohol, it is not good for you but in moderation it is great way to relax.

In the words of Tidal Waves, Legalize the HERB.  Grin           
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2011, 15:10:24 PM »

There is however drugs I believe should stay illegal were the positives of the drug is greatly out weighted by the negatives like Tik and heroin. These are both highly addictive and very damaging to the human body, exp meth mouth.

Some questions:
1. If Heroin were legal, would you take it?
2. If you were a heroin addict, would the current laws prevent you acquiring it?
3. Based on 1 and 2, what effects do laws actually have on heroin usage?

4. What is the difference between carpenter's glue and tik, that justifies the one being an illegal drug and the other not?
5. Based on 4, Should we legislate against all things that could be used as drugs with predominantly negative effects?
6. How about in general, should we legislate away all things that can be harmful, like guns, hammers, knives, rocks, fertilizer (you could make TNT ya know...), etc.
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bobilus
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« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2011, 17:45:37 PM »

There is however drugs I believe should stay illegal were the positives of the drug is greatly out weighted by the negatives like Tik and heroin. These are both highly addictive and very damaging to the human body, exp meth mouth.

Some questions:
1. If Heroin were legal, would you take it?
2. If you were a heroin addict, would the current laws prevent you acquiring it?
3. Based on 1 and 2, what effects do laws actually have on heroin usage?

4. What is the difference between carpenter's glue and tik, that justifies the one being an illegal drug and the other not?
5. Based on 4, Should we legislate against all things that could be used as drugs with predominantly negative effects?
6. How about in general, should we legislate away all things that can be harmful, like guns, hammers, knives, rocks, fertilizer (you could make TNT ya know...), etc.

1. No I would not take heroin.
2. No if your an addict it would not really prevent you from acquiring heroin but addict go to extremes to get their hands on what they want laws, personal safety, human life etc mean nothing for them.
3. I believe they have an impact in that they discourage first time users so there is less addicts running around.
4. The level of addiction, tik is much more addictive than glue. Glue has some useful uses whereas tik is only used as a drug.
5. My personal opinion is government should investigate the addictive nature of all chemicals and if there is a problem with its usage it should be legislated much like schedule 7 medicine.
6. No there will always be something harmful out there but for it is the addictive element in these drugs that is the problem, people usually don't kill each other to satisfy there rock addiction. Guns and ammonium-nitrate based fertilizers are legislated, but in the correct hands they can be useful.

P.S. You don't make TNT from fertilizer, the ammonium-nitrate acts as a great oxidizer usually in conjunction with long carbon chain fuel like diesel. It is basically just a greatly accelerated reaction similar to which is found in a diesel engine.     
   
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2011, 18:06:00 PM »

Quote
... but addict go to extremes to get their hands on what they want laws, personal safety, human life etc mean nothing for them.


How about weed smokers? Is their willingness to break the law then a side effect of their total addiction to weed?

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I believe they have an impact in that they discourage first time users so there is less addicts running around.


By your own admission you're actually not going to take heroin for the first time because it's stupid, not because of the law. I would assume bluntly that you have taken weed though, even though the law prohibits it. From which I extrapolate that the legality of weed or heroin has nothing to do with your choice to take/not take it. If you haven't though, I would point out that weed use is very common despite it's illegality. Whereas heroin use is not.

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Glue has some useful uses ....


Methamphetamine is FDA approved for the treatment of ADHD and exogenous obesity.


Quote
My personal opinion is government should investigate the addictive nature of all chemicals and if there is a problem with its usage it should be legislated much like schedule 7 medicine.


Acetone can both be abused as an inhalant and is also addictive. It's also used in nail-polish remover. Should acetone then be a schedule 7 drug? - Look, I'm sure there's at least like, 50 household items I could come up with that can be abused in an addictive manner, but hey lets just settle with 1 for now...

Quote
P.S. You don't make TNT from fertilizer, the ammonium-nitrate acts as a great oxidizer usually in conjunction with long carbon chain fuel like diesel


Fine. Ban diesel and fertilizer. Diesel is doubly bad because it can also be inhaled, as can petrol.



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bobilus
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« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2011, 12:19:46 PM »

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How about weed smokers? Is their willingness to break the law then a side effect of their total addiction to weed?

Sorry should have been more specific, I was talking about laws like theft etc that have an affect on other people, not those against drug use.

Quote
By your own admission you're actually not going to take heroin for the first time because it's stupid, not because of the law. I would assume bluntly that you have taken weed though, even though the law prohibits it. From which I extrapolate that the legality of weed or heroin has nothing to do with your choice to take/not take it. If you haven't though, I would point out that weed use is very common despite it's illegality. Whereas heroin use is not.


Yes, I'm not going to take it because I know it is stupid but if I was given the chance when I was 16 or 17 when I smoked weed for the first I might have and probably have ended up in some crack house doing crime to fuel my addiction. The big deference between weed and heroin is accessibility, you can get weed from any car guard basically whereas heroin you have to go and search a bit harder. The reason for this I think is that weed can basically grow anywhere in SA whereas heroin must be smuggled in. I think if it was legal it would be mush easier for kids to get their hands on.

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Methamphetamine is FDA approved for the treatment of ADHD and exogenous obesity.

The wiki article prove my point, there is 5 lines of its medical use and 9 paragraphs of the its negative effects.

Quote
Acetone can both be abused as an inhalant and is also addictive. It's also used in nail-polish remover. Should acetone then be a schedule 7 drug? - Look, I'm sure there's at least like, 50 household items I could come up with that can be abused in an addictive manner, but hey lets just settle with 1 for now...

You seriously compare acetone to meth. I also said we should look at their usage, at this moment in time even though acetone is legal there is an epidemic of meth addiction on the cape flats.

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Fine. Ban diesel and fertilizer. Diesel is doubly bad because it can also be inhaled, as can petrol.


Diesel and petrol addiction are not causing huge social problems at the moment so until they do lets leave them legal. On the fertilizer side you cant buy ammonium nitrate fertilizer over the counter anymore some and these that still contain small amounts of ammonium nitrate contain chemicals that slow down the reaction with other chemicals like diesel so instead of an explosion it will only be a small fire.

Please tell me do you want to live in a world where any child can walk in to the spar and buy tik and heroin from the medicine section next to the disprins and any nutter can go and buy machine guns and components to build bombs from their local mica.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2011, 12:41:35 PM »

Quote
The big deference between weed and heroin is accessibility


I grew up in a rough spot, people in my school (well I guess these days every school is like this in some way but stay with me..) could get you anything you wanted. I got an education sitting around checking what all kinds of nasty stuff looked like. I mean a dealer has to have a good pitch! But tell ya what, for all that avialability, even HS kids know buying the buttons is prob. a bad idea, as is meth, etc. But weed sold like crazy. And I think it's because people don't associate it with as much dispair and poverty and untimely death as the other drugs. What I'm saying, if you read carefully, is.... it's about education, not prohibition. Prohibition stops no-one. But it's the knowing that makes you think twice.

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The wiki article prove my point, there is 5 lines of its medical use and 9 paragraphs of the its negative effects.


Proves your point how? You sad it had no positive uses, and should be banned because of that. The article points out it DOES have positive uses. My question to you is, should it be regulated as a Schedule X drug, or banned? How about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphine#Adverse_effects

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You seriously compare acetone to meth.


I thought it was obvious.

Quote
I also said we should look at their usage, at this moment in time even though acetone is legal there is an epidemic of meth addiction on the cape flats.


Yes, exactly, my point in a nutshell. One is legal, and (almost) no-one bothers to use it. The other is illegal, and there's an epidemic of use. What does this tell us about the efficacy of prohibition?

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Please tell me do you want to live in a world where any child can walk in to the spar and buy tik and heroin from the medicine section next to the disprins


Do you realise that before drug prohibition this was exactly the case? Fine, tik didn't exist yet... but herion and opium were available over the counter as remedies for all kinds of ailments.

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and any nutter can go and buy machine guns


Buying illegal hand guns and even machine guns in SA is not that hard... If Carte-Blanche can manage to find a bakke filled to the brim with AK-47's, anyone can. FWIW: In the states getting a machine gun legally is not even all that hard. Not in russia either, this dude ONLY uses guns he obtained legally. He is just a normal private citizen: http://fpsrussia.com

... You are very paranoid for someone who is still alive despite the fact that we already live in a world where weapons and drugs are freely available, the law doesn't prevent shit. Security measures in the middle east are on the "batshit insane" side of paranoid, and yet people there still manage to make and set off car bombs routinely. The fact that it doesn't happen here has NOTHING to do with security measures, which are lax in coparison. People here are just not nearly as pissed off, or motivated, to do it. If they were, they would.

Quote
and components to build bombs from their local mica.


This is already the case, as a kid (yes a kid nogal) I read enough bomb recipies to realise the shit under your sink, scattered around your house, bottles of pool chemicals .... almost anything can be made into a bomb with a little ingenuity and the correct information. Which, btw, is also freely available.
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Tweefo
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« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2011, 16:17:57 PM »

My two cents worth. If you can not enforce a law you may as well not have it. In fact it is better not to have it, people will be less confused on what is against the law or not. At the moment drug prices are quite high but that does not stop those who want it from getting it. Who is benefiting? The drug lords of course. The quality of the stuff also vary greatly I understand, from almost no effect to deadly. Will the use go up with it being legal? I don't think so but at least the quality can be controlled. 
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Superman
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« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2011, 18:48:17 PM »

You may not agree but for me:

The role of government is only:
a)to protect from foreign invaders
b)to protect it citizens from harm of other citizens

I do not feel it is governments role to protect me from myself.
Neither do I need to be controlled by society.

If I am not harming anybody why should I not be able to take a drug.
OR if I am in hospital suffering from a terrible illness.
Who gives others the right to tell me that I cannot end my life.
OR who says I should not be able to have an abortion if I am a woman.
What gives them the right?

Superman
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Faerie
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« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2011, 08:06:22 AM »

b)to protect it citizens from harm of other citizens

All fine and well, but Tik in particular, causes very agressive behaviour, so its ok for the kid in the ghetto to take it up until the point that he hacks his mother and siblings to death with a steak-knife?

Prevention is key here, and hence the laws.  Personally, I have no issue with Ms Mary-Jane, and know her well enough, I do however, have had plenty of experience with drug and alcohol addicts to know the absolute devastation it can sow. I've done all my practical and voluteer work at these centres, and its scary, VERY scary. 


Neither do I need to be controlled by society.


We're all controlled by society whether we like it or not, I agree with you on basic personal rights such as abortion and euthenasia, but without control we'd have anarchy. This statement of yours negates this one:

The role of government is only:
a)to protect from foreign invaders
b)to protect it citizens from harm of other citizens


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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2011, 09:21:02 AM »

To me, the point is about personal liberty. Anyone should be allowed to harm themselves, this to me is one of their "basic human rights". One of the few I view as valid.

Quote from: Faerie
so its ok for the kid in the ghetto to take it up until the point that he hacks his mother and siblings to death with a steak-knife?


Yes. Replace "tik" in your sentence with "alcohol" and you'll see my point. Yes, people should be allowed to drink themselves silly up until they pull out a gun and fire on someone, or smash a beer-bottle over someone's head, drive drunk, etc. In other words, up to the point that they become a direct danger to OTHER people.

Quote from: Faerie
I do however, have had plenty of experience with drug and alcohol addicts to know the absolute devastation it can sow. I've done all my practical and voluteer work at these centres, and its scary, VERY scary.


I have a friend, a good one too, that has lost everything due to an amphetamine/coke addiction. It sucks, it really, really does. I frequently lament his situation. BUT, it is his own doing, and I realise that law or no law, his personality would've (and did) lead to this regardless of who was trying to stop him. I've pleaded with him, we've sat down in a group of close friends and done the "Dude, you're killing yourself" thing. There's very little to help it, if there's any hope for him, it's rehabilitation (if he's willing). But it isn't law enforcement. If anything, getting busted will make his life worse, not better.

Quote from: Faerie
without control we'd have anarchy


I don't believe this is true. There's a concept called "Spontaneous order", which I do buy. I saw an example a while back (you'd have to google) about this dude who lowered accident rates and traffic congestion dramatically at key london interchanges by completely removing traffic signals, signs, lines, etc. from them. What followed was a self-regulating, free flowing, courtesy based system of traffic flow that emerged all by itself. Turns out if your remove the controls, people suddenly start being nice to eachother. To see video of this in action is stunning. You suddenly go, why do we have all these controls?
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Watookal
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« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2011, 13:06:15 PM »

Cocaine for me is on the line
  -- pure poetry.
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Superman
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« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2011, 14:05:29 PM »

@Faerie, I really do understand what you are saying and can see that you care about other people.

Please allow me to say this, 'Think of all the christains,muslims,jews and the things they want to protect ourselves and society from'. Where do you draw the line. I am sure that they deem it proper to protect ourselves from quite a number of things.'

Religion = Socialism

Superman
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Superman
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« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2011, 16:24:19 PM »

PS It does seem that the 'public good' is starting to become a religion.
Every infringement of personal liberties are defended for the public good.  Cry


Oops now I am going into taxes, sorry off-topic. Please ignore.(edit)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 17:41:13 PM by Superman » Logged
BoogieMonster
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« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2011, 18:18:23 PM »

More often than not even the public good can succumb to "think of the children". A special class of citizen that must be protected at all costs.
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