Taking God out of school - first episode....

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brianvds (September 09, 2014, 04:19:05 AM):
Jou enigste alternatief is om 'n hofamptenaar te word of om geloof maar tydelik aan te neem en geordineer word en by die regte klub inkom, even sou jy jou eie kerk stig sal jy sekerlik moet kan bewys dis 'n actual kerk met mense en moet jy seker aan een van die onafhanklike kerke assosiasies lidmaatskap verkry

Dit is op hierdie punt waat die Amerikaners die ding reg doen - die staat kan hom nie aanmatig om te besluit wat 'n "regte" kerk of geloof is nie. Selfs 'n Pastafariƫr behoort mense te kan trou. :-)

Daar is eintlik 'n bietjie van 'n ironie hier. As ek dit reg verstaan, word pare wat bloot saamwoon en nooit formeel trou nie, nietemin deur die staat beskou as getroud, vir sekere doeleindes. Jy kan bv. nie jou saamblymaat bloot uit die huis skop nie; die ding word deur die staat soos 'n tipe skeisaak hanteer. As jy en jou lewensmaat dan boonop in 'n heeltemal informele seremonie deur 'n familievriend "getrou" het, is dit dan sekerlik selfs sterker getuienis dat die verhouding nou soos 'n skeisaak moet eindig, en jy straks bv. onderhoud sal moet betaal aan jou voormalige lewensmaat, en as daar kinders is, sekere regte van toesig ens. sal kan onderhandel.

M.a.w. die staat erken REEDS informele "huwelike" as "regte" huwelike. Dit sal die ding baie minder kompleks maak as enigiemand kan registreer as huweliksbeampte.
Jacques (September 09, 2014, 06:34:26 AM):
I don't understand much of what I'm quoting below, but for interest, the FSI is recognised as eligible to officiate marriages, and I am a marriage officer under that "denomination". So there's at least one fully secular organisation that's achieved recognition.

LOL - ek het al vergeet ek het eenmaal ook geregistreer op daai universal life church - maar ja dink dis maar 'n joke in ons land, dink nie die staat lig eers 'n wenkbrou oor sulke goed nie.

Nee wat, as jy nie aan 'n erkende geloofs instansie of aan 'n tradisionele groep behoort met 'n chief nie, beteken dit maar bra min, het al op 'n kol gekommunikeer met die departement van binnelandse sake oor hierdie onderwerp en hulle was duidelik oor wat hulle verwag van iemand wat vir daai trou beampte/ "marriage officer" wil registeer - jy moet wel by hulle some eksamentjie of iets afle, maar as jy nie die regte backing het nie dan is dit maar tot daarnatoe.

Dis een gebied waar ek voel die ongelowiges/humaniste/ateiste/ens gemeenskap openlik deur ons land wette teen ons gediskrimineer word, ek sal graag nog aksie hierteen wil neem of skenkings maak aan 'n organisasie wat vir sulke dinge baklei - ek is seker dat die grondwet ons al die tools gee om teen hierdie diskrimninasie te baklei.

Dit lyk my die trou seremonie behoort aan die kerk, en nie soos dit behoort te wees, 'n algemene reg nie, die regering en die official geloofs/tradisie organisasies is kop-in-een-mis.

Jou enigste alternatief is om 'n hofamptenaar te word of om geloof maar tydelik aan te neem en geordineer word en by die regte klub inkom, even sou jy jou eie kerk stig sal jy sekerlik moet kan bewys dis 'n actual kerk met mense en moet jy seker aan een van die onafhanklike kerke assosiasies lidmaatskap verkry

Of 'n mens moet ateisme/humanisme as 'n geloof verklaar en so kerk storie stig :)

Jy kan altyd ook maar die UU roete gaan.

Ek se nie ons land het 'n tekort aan sekulere altenrnatiewes nie - daar is talle mense wat hulself uitgee as sekulere sermonie beamptes - my issue is meer rondom hoe hulle daai lisensie moet bekom.


Hier is geselekteerde dele van wat ek nog in my inbox oor het van my kommunikasies met die mense:
Quote

....
How do I or someone of my choosing become a marriage officer, noting my non-religiousity and seeking a secular wedding ceremony that's not performed in a magistrate's court/DHA/religious institution, complying with the Act and which is equal and fair to me as a SA citizen.

....
Unfortunately to become a marriage officer an application has to be logged via the controlling body of a church and as an individual you will not be able to apply for yourself. Feel free to contact Ms Maria Mthimunye on 012 810 6326, maria.mthimunye@dha.gov.za for more information



dis die crux van die kommunikasies met die DHA. Dit was in 2012 daardie aanhaling van my is 'n opsommingstuk van my ondersoek met verdere attachments van discussions met ander mense wat dit dit die saak verwys het na die huweliks afdeling toe.




The Vulcan (September 09, 2014, 06:59:42 AM):
Well the US isn't that perfect, for one thing, I don't think they legalize polygamy, whereas we do, though I'm not sure where the law stands if it's the other way around like polyamarous relationships (and what about multi-partner lgbt marriages, if that's even a thing)

This sense of complacency with the status quo is what I'm frustrated with, you know the idea of "dont rock the boat" I think that is one of the drivers for us as a secular community not having many alternatives when it comes to lobby groups for our interests, isn't it? That's why I really admire what you're doing Jacques, save for your activism, I am really unaware of any other activists/lobby groups for secular interests, don't think many people know how to get involved in activism and stuff, I speak for myself at least.

I understand you are trying to make the fsi like some sort of umbrella organization, does that then mean that other members/member groups can obtain the same rights to become licenced marriage officers through their membership to the fsi? That would be something, It seems there's at least one less thing to complain about :)

I understand the take on long-term relationships in the same way,brian, but still I don't think it's the same as a marriage, just like civil unions are also not seen as marriages, well at least from the perspective of the church and religious people I've talked to, they seem to console themselves with the idea that for a "real" marriage the buck still stops at the church door
BoogieMonster (September 09, 2014, 10:17:37 AM):
Admin please split, we're way off topic but it's still an interesting discussion.

Well the US isn't that perfect, for one thing, I don't think they legalize polygamy


It's entirely illegal.

Quote
though I'm not sure where the law stands if it's the other way around like polyamarous relationships


The way I understand it, is that Polygamy laws relate to marriage. Polyamorous relationships shouldn't incur legal prejudice afaik. BUT, I'm curious what happens when you combine the two: what if one partner is married and has poly relationships? From my ignorant perspective, it would seem it prejudices that partner should there ever be a divorce... In some countries like the USA at least. I'm also quite curious what this would mean in SA.

In short, the law doesn't smile a lot on free love.

Quote
I understand the take on long-term relationships in the same way,brian, but still I don't think it's the same as a marriage, just like civil unions are also not seen as marriages, well at least from the perspective of the church and religious people I've talked to, they seem to console themselves with the idea that for a "real" marriage the buck still stops at the church door


I wish, I oh so wish, I could drill it into the skulls of friends and family that to me the word "marriage" means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Me and Majin are partners, in both our minds for good. I don't need sanction from the state nor any religious institution to make that "more real".
The Vulcan (September 09, 2014, 10:43:47 AM):
To me it's all about gross discrimination against people that don't conform to some Stone-Age views, always with the tribal mentality... ugh...

I see that under the subtitle (the wiki), South Africa, only the RCMA is mentioned for allowing polygamous marriages, think that might be outdated, as I'm sure that the Civil Union Act also makes provision for polygamous marriages - I think with specific mention to polygamous Muslim marriages and then that act makes some reference to the RCMA as well.

I've never drawn that conclusion about polygamy= marriage and polyamoury= relationship, sounds just like wordplay to me - as I understand polygamy is a less inclusive term that only relates to males having multiple female wives, whereas poly is more like a spectrum of types of relationships, though I'd definitely agree that swinging is just relationships and definitely not as a marital status.

Yeah, I know what you mean, if I tell someone I'm bi, then they're like "don't you mean you're confused/gay?" - and crap about you're living in sin, there's a reason why gay unions are not called marriages, but unions and partnerships, it's unnatural and against god's word and you should be familiar with this type of crappy justifications and bad reasoning, again - discrimination and hatefulness - and you think we are supposed to live in a country that values equality and supposedly against discrimination (seems it only has meaning in relation to sexism toward women and racism agaisnt blacks - even on a good day it's still a double standard)

Yes, admin please split, seems I unintentionally railroaded the topic at hand ;D

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