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Taking God out of school - first episode....

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2014, 13:33:40 PM »

Hulle sou ook goed doen om te onthou dat daar slegs kapsie gemaak word teen publieke skole wat 'n sekere godsdiens afdwing.

Geen klag is gemaak teen 'n private instelling nie. Die feit van die saak is hierdie skole is nie beskore vir net hulle gebruik nie. Daar is talle christelike privaat skole wat, as hulle nou verkeerdelik sou voel hulle "mag" nie bid of christene wees sonder explisiete permissie van 'n skoolhoof nie, natuurlik en grondwetlik enige christelike "belewenisse" mag uitvoer wat hulle wil.

En weet jy wat, daai selfde privaat skole bevat ook talle ateïste wat dit gaan afsluk sonder veel van 'n probleem. Ek ken self sulke mense wat maar net die hele ding geïgnoreer het. Die punt is, dit is hulle keuse en niemand anders sin nie, en my belasting geld betaal nie daarvoor nie.

As jy nou rérig wou aspris wees kon ons altyd aandring dat kerke 'n spesiale belasting moet betaal wat gaan aan 'n spesiale fonds om tempels/kerke/ens vir ander "minder bevoorregte" gelowe te bou. Dan sal jy sien hoe die snot spat.

Maar nee, dis net OK as christene dit met my geld doen, nie anders om nie.
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The Vulcan
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« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2014, 14:05:20 PM »

Ja, maar ongelukkig geniet christene soveel VOORREGTE, dat hulle dit as REGTE beskou, dit maak my boos kwaad dat hulle hulle so snot pikkerig is om sulke bisarre gelykenisse te maak en nog die vermetelheid het om in soveel woorde te se dat ongelowiges geen waardes het nie of in niks glo nie.

As nie-christene, moet ongelowiges, Jode, Muslims, Buddhiste ensomeer, soos jy se, Boogie, hierdie praktyke en onregverdige voortrekkery in christene se guns maar net stilletjies verdra en jou mond hou - as jy by party groepe net durf se jy is 'n ateis dat word jy summier uitgestoot, Afriforum maak dit dan ook juis duidelik:
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Hoekom voel mense, wat aan geen geloof behoort nie, altyd so geïntimideer deur ander gelowe?  Dit was mos jou keuse om nie in iets te glo nie? Nie deel te wees nie, nie te behoort nie.

Die stelling dat leerders nie verplig is om deel ten neem aan christen praktyke nie is ook heeltemal onakkuraat - miskien tegnies volgens die wet wel, maar as dit by implementering kom kan jy nie die maandagoggend kerksessie in die saal mis nie, dit word verplig en wanneer leerders by afsluitingstyd kom en daar word gevra wie gaan bid mag jy net opstaan en loop nie, die enigste manier om hierdie spesiale regte aan leerders te voorsien is na ouers van bv. muslim kinders eers met die hoof moet gaan praat dat hulle bloedjies nou spesiale gunsies moet kry om nie daaraan blootgestel te word nie, as ongelowige kinders word dit dikwels net verdra.

Man ek BID vir die dag dat kerke belas word, hulle is immers ook net besighede.
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brianvds
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« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2014, 15:00:19 PM »

AfriForum onderneem om enige iemand wat 'n teensand wil maak teen OGOD te ondersteun en self die geld daarvoor op te dok
        -https://www.afriforum.co.za/land-skool-god/

Lyk my daai battle lines waarvan julle gepraat het is definitief in die sand getrek

Afriforum het to dusver soms heel goeie werk verrig. Helaas, daar het hulle my nou verloor. Die punt hier is dat in spesifieke skole, godsdiens in die leerlinge se kele afgeforseer is. Dit is beslis NIE wat die grondwet voorsiening voor maak nie.

In ieder geval, ek het nie veel hoop dat die hofsaak gaan slaag nie, juis omdat die grondwet voorsiening maak vir godsdiensbeoefening in skole. Mens kan hierdie spesifieke skole verbied om met hulle praktyke te volhard, maar dit sal moeilik gaan om godsdiens heeltemal uit skole uit te kry.

Nou ja, dalk maar mens se kinders nie in die eerste plek in staatskole plaas nie. Ek sou dink daar is nogal 'n mark vir 'n paar uitdruklik sekulêre skole...
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2014, 15:12:22 PM »

Ek sou dink daar is nogal 'n mark vir 'n paar uitdruklik sekulêre skole...

Dit maak sin (en sover ek onthou het Faerie gesê haar kinders is juis in so 'n skool) in stedelike gebiede, maar op die platteland gaan jy sukkel om die onkoste vir 'n baie klein getal kinders te regverdig. Dis juis hoekom staatskole die platteland bedien! Dus is dit ook nie vir my aanvaarbaar dat ongelowiges maar "'n ander skool moet gaan soek" nie. Die staatskool op 'n klein dorp is heel moontlik die enigste skool.
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The Vulcan
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« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2014, 15:25:22 PM »

Ek stem daarmee ooreen, alles gaan oor wat sy klagtes alles behels, ek reken dit mag suksevol wees as die regte benadering gebruik workd - blykbaar het hy soortgelyke dinge in 2011 probeer, kom ons hoop hy het al iets geleer oor die regte strategie, Die grondwet maak wel voorsiening vir godsdiensbeoefening, maar dit beskerm nie diskriminasie, intimidasie en die afdwing van spesifieke opinies nie - en geloof is maar net 'n opinie.

Meantime gebruik kunstunaars dit as gratis advertensie geleenthede:

Artikel:Skole vir Jesus skop af by Oos-Rand Akademie
MET die dreigende hofsaak oor die beoefening van Godsdiens in openbare skole het die sanger, Rudi Muller, sy projek, Skole vir Jesus, Maandag met ‘n besoek aan Oos-Rand Akademie afgeskop. Lees meer (Kempton Express)

Dis net pure kapitalisme vir jou, dalk is hy regtig gekant teen die storie in 'n jesus-freak episode, maar ek wed hy kla nie oor die publisiteit nie!
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2014, 15:40:13 PM »

Ek moet bieg, ek dink die hofsaak is ook vir publisiteit. Klaarblyklik werk dit heel goed.

Ek dink rerig nie die "afkorting" OGOD is 'n baie groot toeval nie.

En ek dink ook nie dis als 'n slegte ding nie. Dis min dat mense herhinder word daar ís ateïste in hierdie land.

 Die histeriese mense gaan histeries wees, maar ek wet hierdie petalje laat tog 'n groot groep christene nadink oor wat dit beteken om waarlik saam te leef met mense van ander oortuigings. Ek dink ook daar is 'n stil groep onder hulle wat wel nie so erg omgee nie.
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The Vulcan
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« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2014, 15:56:22 PM »

Litnet artikel: Godsdiens in skole: Wat sê die Grondwet? - Marinus Wiechers

Ons regsgeleerdes dink miskien te maklik dat die reg alle probleme in die samelewing kan oplos. En as die reëlings soos dit nou geld, nie genoegsaam is nie, dat hulle aangepas of gewysig kan word. Soms is hierdie samelewingsprobleme egter so verwikkeld en kompleks dat hulle buite die draagwydte van die reg val.

Soos die kwessie van godsdiens in skole.

Grondwetlik is die hele kwessie oënskynlik nie so moeilik nie. Volgens ons Grondwet mag openbare skole wel godsdiensonderrig toelaat, op voorwaarde dat sulke onderrig volgens publieke riglyne geskied, dat dit op gelyke grondslag uitgevoer word en dat bywoning daarvan vry en na eie diskresie moet wees. Die Skolewet en nasionale beleid van 2003 lê sulke riglyne neer en bevestig beheerrade se mag om godsdiensbeleid in openbare skole te bepaal, met herhaling van die vereiste dat godsdiensonderrig en -praktyke in die skole vry en volgens eie keuse moet wees.


Lees verder

Ou Kobus de Klerk het blykbaar ook 'n artikel geskryf, maar die link wat ek raakgeloop het is skynbaar gebroke.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 16:22:27 PM by The Vulcan, Reason: More relevant. » Logged
The Vulcan
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« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2014, 11:29:40 AM »

Dit lyk my hierdie debat oor geloof in skole is nog lank nie verby nie, in vandag se burger se Piet Croukamp:
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Skole is die openbare eiendom van alle Suid-Afrikaners. As jy ’n Moslem-, ’n Jode- of ’n Christenskool wil hê, behoort jy self daarvoor te begroot. Wanneer jy jou belasting aan die staat oorhandig het, moet dit aangewend word in die algemene belang, nie in sektariese belang nie.

-Die Burger

En in nog 'n rubriek in Rapport 13/9 word daar aaggevoer:
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In die skoolgodsdienskwessie is twee benaderings tot maatskaplike verbetering besig om te bots. Die een groep dink dieselfde oplossing is die beste vir almal en wil dit met staatsmag afdwing. Die ander groep dink verskillende oplossings is beter, al sal nie almal perfek wees nie.


Alhoewel, ek nie soseer  saamstem met Croukamp se opmerking dat ongelowige ouers graag hulle kinders wil isoleer van religieuse idees nie, is sy punt om geloofs neutraliteit heeltemal 'n gesonde standpunt, maar Le Roux voer weer aan dat 'n skool nie neutraal oor geloof kan wees nie, blykbaar as daar niks oor geloof gepraat word deur die wat gesag het in skole nie, voer hulle skynbaar net waardes van 'n ander geloof aan, nl "die geloof van die ateis"

Ek stem wel saam dat OGOD dalk 'n bietjie sterker aanslag het as om bloot neutraliteit en gelykheid te bevorder, maar die "ander oplossing" is wat? Om stil te bly terwyl een geloof bo al die ander afgedwing word op jou? Kom on wees eerlik, enige ander oplossing wat kinders toelaat om hulle "vrye keuse" uit te oefen is moellikheid soek, ons weet mos hoe word (veral in 'n skool opset) mens vinnig eenkant toe uitgedruk, nie te praat van die geboelie en druk wat teen sulke kinders gerig word nie.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2014, 12:16:11 PM »

Not that one should always have to compromise, but one model that may work OK-ish in South Africa comes to mind.

Constitutionally, clearly kids can't be forced to participate in religious studies, prayer meetings or the likes.

In practice I doubt that this is generally adhered to. My own child is lucky enough to attend a school that I think is really, really good at what it does, and there is very little I would want to change. But, he has confirmed that he didn't know that he is allowed to leave the class when Jesus is about to kick off. Would HE want to leave? Would Miss let him do so? Open questions, all, but I suspect things just work out this way  due to practical considerations rather than a flagrant disregard for the law. Frankly, I too would rather have my child listen to Bible stories in the safety of a classroom than have him roam around in the yard for half an hour.

Still, I would be even happier if, for now, two things happen in traditionally religious schools:

1. They clearly define and set aside a period for worship applicable to the whole school.

2. Concurrently, a proper class offering alternative "entertainment" must be provided for. Such a class will be manned by either a teacher or a parent-volunteer (or a skeptic Wink), in which pupils can be told some interesting factual stuff, receive extra mathematics tuition, have discussions, or be entertained with science experiments.

I dare dream that such alternative studies could prove so interesting that more and more kids will opt to attend them.

If a school wishes to continue practicing religion it will clearly be in it's own interest to set up such a classroom. That way the school can easily demonstrate that it is constitutionally compliant.

Rigil
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2014, 12:25:24 PM »

There has been recent rumblings on these forums about skeptics wanting to DO things in the community. Perhaps the time is ripe to jointly start working on a non-examinable "Secular Studies" syllabus aimed at having as much fun as possible within the confines of a classroom.

Rigil

ETA: It's just occurred to me that the expression "The time is ripe" is rubbish. If ripeness is a function of time, then calling time itself "ripe" is a bit self-referential.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 12:48:50 PM by Rigil Kent » Logged
The Vulcan
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« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2014, 13:20:03 PM »

Well, I'm do not have the competency to develop such an alternative studies programme, as I'm not a teacher and am largely ignorant about the operations of the education system, however this doesn't mean we can't do something, what about approaching the court as a friend of the court? Think it's called amicus - something, don't know if we practice the concept in SA, but I know it's a British concept and I also know our legal system is also based on English law, plus we are a modern country with a modern constitution, so I can't see that would not have incorporated this concept.

Anyway if we do practice this friend of the court thing, I think it may be a great idea to maybe influence the outcome of a case like this through making suggestions and offering alternatives and compromises like the stuff you came up with, Rigil.

 Grin
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2014, 13:25:36 PM »

... what about approaching the court as a friend of the court?
Well, that would certainly be a new experience for anyone in my family. Cheesy
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Brian
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« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2014, 13:53:05 PM »

secular studies won't work as it smacks of opposition to religious studies: IMHO we need to cultivate critical thinking in schools. Lots of research has been done around this and it is a neutral subject (although vested interests may see it too as an attempt to create dissension). There are societies that promote it:

It includes the ability to engage in reflective and independent thinking. Someone with critical thinking skills is able to do the following : understand the logical connections between ideas;identify, construct and evaluate arguments;detect inconsistencies and common mistakes in reasoning; solve problems systematically; identify the relevance and importance of ideas;reflect on the justification of one's own beliefs and values. (extracted from http://philosophy.hku.hk/think/critical/ct.php)


It should not be confused with being argumentative or being critical of other people. Although critical thinking skills can be used in exposing fallacies and bad reasoning, critical thinking can also play an important role in cooperative reasoning and constructive tasks.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2014, 14:08:38 PM »

It’s called amicus curiae and the concept is practised in SA.  However, the courts always look closely at the bona fides and standing of such “friends” before deciding on whether to consider their input.  It’s unlikely that a loose and informal affiliation like this forum would enjoy any traction with the courts.

Also, following the example of the Dept of Basic Education, many schools are very reluctant, if not actively opposed, to allow unaccredited individuals or organisations access to their pupils.  You can give private tuition at your home or at private premises if pupils come to you but if you offer to augment a school’s curriculum without the correct qualifications and paperwork in hand, you’ll run squarely into a stone wall, regardless how noble, well-intentioned or generous your offer may be.

'Luthon64
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2014, 14:15:15 PM »

secular studies won't work as it smacks of opposition to religious studies
That may well be so.

I recall from my own days in secondary school that we had these "lewensoriëntering" (life skillls?) classes for 45 minutes a week, where some unfortunate teacher were tasked with coaching us hooligans in everything from writing checks to birth control and table manners. Not sure if those are still around, or even why I'm mentioning them.

Anyhow, I agree that critical thinking, or even philosophy in general, would make a sterling alternative to praying.

... but if you offer to augment a school’s curriculum without the correct qualifications and paperwork in hand, you’ll run squarely into a stone wall.
Pity, but understandable I suppose. Then they should just shift the religious fests to the last period and allow the secular kids to go home.

Rigil
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