South Africa Flag logo

South African Skeptics

July 24, 2019, 11:45:44 AM
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
Go to mobile page.
News: Follow saskeptics on twitter.
   
   Skeptic Forum Board Index   Help Forum Rules Search GoogleTagged Login Register Chat Blogroll  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic:

Education about the Middle Ages

 (Read 5484 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Teleological
Moderate Realist
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +2/-28
Offline Offline

Posts: 980

Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit


« on: August 25, 2010, 10:16:28 AM »

Please read important topics from this time:
1) Dissections:
Quote
Early systematic human dissections were carried out by the Greek physicians Herophilus of Chalcedon and Erasistratus of Chios in the early part of the third century BC.[1] Before and after this time investigators appeared to largely limit themselves to non-human animals.[2] Roman law forbade dissection and autopsy of the human body,[3] so physicians such as Galen were unable to work on cadavers. Galen for example dissected the Barbary Macaque and other primates, assuming their anatomy was basically the same as that of humans.[4][5][6]

Human dissections were also conducted by Arabic physicians from the 11th century, after Islamic scholars such as Al-Ghazali expressed support for its practice.[7] Some of the Arabic physicians who have performed dissections include Ibn Zuhr (Avenzoar) (1091-1161) in Al-Andalus,[8] Saladin's physician Ibn Jumay during the 12th century, Abd-el-latif in Egypt circa 1200,[9] and Ibn al-Nafis in Syria and Egypt during the 13th century.[7][10][11]


Unlike pagan Rome, Christian Europe did not exercise a universal prohibition of the dissection and autopsy of the human body and such examinations were carried out regularly from at least the 13th century.[12][13][14] It has even been suggested that the Christian theology contributed significantly to the revival of human dissection and autopsy by providing a new socio-religious and cultural context in which the human cadaver was no longer seen as sacrosanct.[15]


Also read: God's Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science
Nicely reviewed at this interesting blog (atheist blogger): Armarium Magnum

Please what the Dark ages actually refer to: Dark Ages
Read about the Early Middle Ages.

Please read about the Renaissance of the 12th century. Especially the rise of science, reason as well as the Scholastic system and the start of the first universities as we know them today.

Please try and understand that the so-called "dark ages" are not as a result of those dastardly Christians but because Rome was sacked several times by the Visigoths, barbarians, vandals, gauls etc. (387BC-546BC). If it wasn't for the church's active campaigns to regain knowledge from ancient Greece and Rome as well as Arabia and the Middle east, the 12th century Renaissance would never have happened... no universities, no dissections, no science etc.

And of course this classic should be read by all those who are interested in modern science:
The metaphysical foundations of modern physical science
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 10:37:45 AM by Teleological » Logged
GCG
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +8/-4
Offline Offline

Posts: 1829


skeptical mantis is skeptical


adele horn
WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2010, 10:39:13 AM »

wow, how that for passing the buck.
im no historian, but i do have two braincells to rub together.
sure, the barbarians kicked rome's ass all over the show.  but that doesnt mean the knowledge was lost.  libraries have been destroyed, but all knowledge doesnt lie within the walls of a library.
science, construction, philosophy, etc, is something you learn, and hang onto.  sure, maybe a whole bunch of knowledgeable people were killed, or fled.  but they still carry their skill with them.
i think this was just a gap for catholics to pick up the pieces, and ingrain themselves so deeply within society, that pagans were soon ousted.  and the stronger the churh became, the stronger they became, if you catch my drift.
i dont need to know specific events or persons' histories, to know that human nature is what it is.  and if there is money to make, they sure as hell will.
so the church made sure that they hung onto any and literature.  that they had the percieved gate to god.  where before, the pagans had temples galore, and learning was not all that scarce.  people were, in general, quite literate (in rome and similar areas in any instance).  the church grabbed unto the choas that followed the fall of rome, and made sure to cash in.
the church withheld learning from anybody but the elite.  they didnt even bother to preach in a language that the people could understand.  they refused to translate the bible so people can have access to its content. 
any person who yearned for knowledge, that wasnt bible knowledge, was quickly ostracized and sommer killed.  because knowledge would pry away the complete power the church had over the people.
scholars were accepted, as long as they practiced church-approved (and church thought-up) teachings and ideals. 
to blame the fall of rome by outside forces, for the decline of human learning, is complete bollocks.
many empires had falled before.  it's they way of things.  difference is, instead of it taking a few hundred years for the culture to get going again, the church made SURE that they create fear within a people, by threatening them with the curse of damnation.
it took people having to die for knowledge, people having to dissect corpses in their kitchens under the cover of secrecy,  concocting medicines, looking at the starts and wondering....  the church had carte blance on all thing educational.
and as ive said before, they kept the people in the mud, and they float about in their silk robes, living like kings.  on the blood and ignorance of the people they are supposed to serve.
if rome hadnt fallen, we might quite possibly be having temples to zeus and hera, and not JC and god.
i think, where other religions of the time, was based on general good, the catholic church was greedy, and didnt give a rat's ass who was tortured, maimed, and destroyed in the process.
wars were funded by the church.  the crusades was an excuse to plunder foreign lands, and bring back slaves.  and steal someone else's gold, which, inevitably, ended up in church coffers.
i denounce your theory outright.
Logged
BoogieMonster
NP complete
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +19/-1
Online Online

Posts: 3070



« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2010, 10:45:36 AM »

Quote
Christian Europe did not exercise a universal prohibition

So there was prohibition.

Quote
Human dissections were also conducted by Arabic physicians from the 11th century, after Islamic scholars such as Al-Ghazali expressed support for its practice

Why did he have to express support for it before it could happen?

Moreover:

Quote
from at least the 13th century

So 2 centuries after the islamic scholars were doing it.
Logged
GCG
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +8/-4
Offline Offline

Posts: 1829


skeptical mantis is skeptical


adele horn
WWW
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 10:51:08 AM »

Vicar of Christ

Gregory I  (590-604)

Wealth from Fakes
Thousands of believers were deceived into purchasing expensive relics from Gregory I, who claimed they belonged to saints – many of whom never existed!

Grammar banned
Gregory ordered bishops to desist from the "wicked labour" of teaching grammar and Latin to lay people.
Library burned
Gregory forbade lay people from reading the Bible and ordered the burning of the Palatine Apollo library so its secular literature "would not distract" from religious devotion.

Statues destroyed
Gregory ordered many ancient Roman statues, marbles and mosaics destroyed or turned into lime. Remnants were used to adorn Christian churches and cathedrals.

Enforced celibacy
Gregory I introduced a celibacy edict to prevent property from passing from the Church to wives, families or mistresses of clergy. Thousands of babies were drowned in a pond outside the Lateran palace after the edict was issued.

this is the kind of people who fuelled the Dark Ages.  they kept people in the dirt.
dont blame the pagan for the christian curse.

FYI, nice website for those of us who live in this dimension http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/dark-age.htm
Logged
Teleological
Moderate Realist
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +2/-28
Offline Offline

Posts: 980

Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit


« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 11:07:09 AM »

Quote
Christian Europe did not exercise a universal prohibition

So there was prohibition.
This was common in that era and not restricted any particular religion. Point being, Christian theology contributed to the active gain of medical knowledge via dissection.
Quote
Human dissections were also conducted by Arabic physicians from the 11th century, after Islamic scholars such as Al-Ghazali expressed support for its practice

Why did he have to express support for it before it could happen?
Like I said, it was a common taboo in the ancient world not restricted to any particular creed or religion.

Moreover:

Quote
from at least the 13th century

So 2 centuries after the islamic scholars were doing it.
The Islamic world was relatively much more advanced than Christian Europe at that time. It was only after knowledge from the middle east was brought to Europe that Europe started to catch up.

Lol at the "jesusneverexisted" site. Do you guys think it is an accurate, unbiased source of good academic information?
Logged
GCG
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +8/-4
Offline Offline

Posts: 1829


skeptical mantis is skeptical


adele horn
WWW
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 11:23:05 AM »

uhm tele, i said that site was for people from this dimension.  you dont apply.
Logged
Brian
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +8/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 1367


I think therefor I am, I think


« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 11:30:21 AM »

Lol at the "jesusneverexisted" site. Do you guys think it is an accurate, unbiased source of good academic information?
I believe Jesus did exist but he was no god (there is no god) merely a charismatic Jewish lay-preacher, probably somewhat of a reformer (witness his disgust at the Pharisees' money tables in the temple)did not die on the cross (it took a lot longer than the two hours the NT talks about to die...roughly 3 days) and he then took off to escape with the help of his friends...generally a good sort of guy but somewhat confused. The myths about him started much later.
Logged
Mefiante
Defollyant Iconoclast
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +61/-9
Offline Offline

Posts: 3748


In solidarity with rwenzori: Κοπρος φανεται


WWW
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 11:42:16 AM »

The fact that the (Roman Catholic) Church was the impetus behind the establishment of most European schools, universities and centres of learning imparts no more credence or respectability to Christian doctrine or theology than modern chemistry lends to alchemy, or astronomy gives to astrology, or relativistic dynamics offers to Aristotelian motion.  Moreover, numerous examples show that when studies undermined said doctrine or theology, they were actively, even forcefully suppressed as heretical.  The idea behind such schools etc. was in any case ad majorem Dei gloriam, a motivation that ultimately backfired because the superfluity of a/any god became increasingly clear, and the trend has yet to show any signs of waning if one ignores the ever-fewer hoarse shouts coming from the wilderness.

Furthermore, the Church had within its control, if not all of it, most of the available wealth.  To this day, it remains among the wealthiest institutions globally.  Unsurprisingly, it had refined a near-perfect method for effectively expropriating wealth from both common people and rulers, and extorting it from benefactors by guile, dupery and conceit.  Much of this wealth was used to further many of the Church’s own wicked ends, at times by force, and the establishment of institutes of learning was clearly a grab at owning people’s minds too along with the rest of their existences.  Therefore, to sing Christianity’s and/ or the Church’s praises as having done good in promoting education is conveniently and wilfully to ignore that such good had come in spite of, rather than because of its sponsors, whose motivations and actions were inspired and executed by enormously more disreputable reasons and means.

'Luthon64
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 11:56:36 AM by Mefiante » Logged
Teleological
Moderate Realist
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +2/-28
Offline Offline

Posts: 980

Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit


« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 14:40:46 PM »

The fact that the (Roman Catholic) Church was the impetus behind the establishment of most European schools, universities and centres of learning imparts no more credence or respectability to Christian doctrine or theology than modern chemistry lends to alchemy, or astronomy gives to astrology, or relativistic dynamics offers to Aristotelian motion.

No one is claiming that it does btw. Still, it is good that you made this observation. It should also be noted that the success of modern science does in no way impart any truth to the metaphysical foundations of modern science. Burtt's classic (The metaphysical foundations of modern physical science) will aid in understanding this of course Wink.

 Moreover, numerous examples show that when studies undermined said doctrine or theology, they were actively, even forcefully suppressed as heretical.

I can think of Galileo as an example.

 The idea behind such schools etc. was in any case ad majorem Dei gloriam, a motivation that ultimately backfired because the superfluity of a/any god became increasingly clear, and the trend has yet to show any signs of waning if one ignores the ever-fewer hoarse shouts coming from the wilderness.

Yes, because logically there can be many gods according to classical theism lol... Huh? Roll Eyes

Furthermore, the Church had within its control, if not all of it, most of the available wealth.  To this day, it remains among the wealthiest institutions globally.  Unsurprisingly, it had refined a near-perfect method for effectively expropriating wealth from both common people and rulers, and extorting it from benefactors by guile, dupery and conceit.  Much of this wealth was used to further many of the Church’s own wicked ends, at times by force, and the establishment of institutes of learning was clearly a grab at owning people’s minds too along with the rest of their existences.  Therefore, to sing Christianity’s and/ or the Church’s praises as having done good in promoting education is conveniently and wilfully to ignore that such good had come in spite of, rather than because of its sponsors, whose motivations and actions were inspired and executed by enormously more disreputable reasons and means.

'Luthon64

Sounds like your average company that does business in order to stay alive and promote its own brand. This company has huge charities though. As a company, it's not doing too bad either. Should they be taxed for acting like a company?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 14:57:49 PM by Teleological » Logged
GCG
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +8/-4
Offline Offline

Posts: 1829


skeptical mantis is skeptical


adele horn
WWW
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 15:05:05 PM »

Yes. a company that sells fear, pain, hate and suffering!!
and since when is it supposed to be profitable to save souls?
that's absolute bullshit.
when you are a religious leader, you are supposed to do it, because you feel the need to do so, not to make money out of it.  Shocked
you should be selfless, lead a life the likes of a buddhist monk, not live like royalty.  you shouldnt take money from anybody.
and whatever money filtered throught to the poor, if any and at all, is but a molecule of the riches the church did, and stil does, stuff in their pockets.
it's a corrupt, sick institution, and the human species, if not the world, would be a better place if the papalcy, and all other institutions that make money off the religious, are shut down.
Logged
StevoMuso
Stevo Muso
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +4/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 654



« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2010, 09:18:31 AM »

it's a corrupt, sick institution, and the human species, if not the world, would be a better place if the papalcy, and all other institutions that make money off the religious, are shut down.
And what do they offer? What is their "product" that attracts so many willing members/contributors? Eternal life. So we can add "unethical liars" to "corrupt" and "sick". They have built their entire "company" by selling a product that doesn't exist.
Logged
Mefiante
Defollyant Iconoclast
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +61/-9
Offline Offline

Posts: 3748


In solidarity with rwenzori: Κοπρος φανεται


WWW
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2010, 19:20:07 PM »

It looks like SA’s education is also intently headed back into the Middle Ages.  This prayer meeting took place today and the country’s highest basic education authority, Minister Angie Motshekga, attended it.  God doesn’t alleviate stupidity; s/he causes it.

'Luthon64
Logged
Cdated
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 16



« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2010, 12:06:01 PM »

oh and what of the spanish inquisition?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

"God" is just the ultimate excuse for mans nature to take its action and wreak its havoc.

From young school bullies exhibit this nature, either fit in - submit or pay the price.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  


 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
Page created in 0.632 seconds with 24 sceptic queries.
Google visited last this page February 19, 2019, 20:37:38 PM
Privacy Policy