South Africa Flag logo

South African Skeptics

July 26, 2017, 06:38:15 AM
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
Go to mobile page.
News: Follow saskeptics on twitter.
   
   Skeptic Forum Board Index   Help Forum Rules Search GoogleTagged Login Register Chat Blogroll  
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic:

Didn't Darwin make Teleological obsolete?

 (Read 13070 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Julian
Full Member
***

Skeptical ability: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2010, 13:55:20 PM »

Some gods that probably would not be capable of undetectable intelligent design:
Aniger - The minor goddess of squashed animals, as in "Oh God, what was that I hit?".
Anoia - The minor goddess of Things That Stick in Drawers.
Bibulous - The God of Wine and Things on Sticks.
Bilious - The "Oh God of Hangovers".
Urika - The Goddess of Snow, Saunas and Theatrical Performances for Fewer than 120 People.

and others - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld_gods

PS: Hermes you should change your name to Fedeks.
Logged
Julian
Full Member
***

Skeptical ability: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2010, 14:00:21 PM »

How could I leave out Herne the Hunted!
"Herne, The God of Hunted Animals. Herne appears as a small figure with floppy rabbit ears, small horns and a good turn of speed. He has the unfortunate job of being the constantly terrified and apprehensive god of all small furry creatures whose destiny it is to end their lives as a brief, crunchy squeak"
Logged
Hermes
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +18/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 1137



« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2010, 14:02:04 PM »

Hermes + Red Bull beats Fedeks.
Logged
Julian
Full Member
***

Skeptical ability: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2010, 14:11:41 PM »

Hermes + Red Bull = 6 winged god?

Yes that is pretty impressive.
Logged
Julian
Full Member
***

Skeptical ability: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2010, 14:18:53 PM »

This implies that a god could have fiddled with a bit of GM in an undetectable way, i.e. practised ID in such a way that we cannot spot it later.


This would be an example of "Last Thursdayism" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omphalos_hypothesis#Other_formulations).
Basically this is the idea that "the world might have been created last Thursday (or by implication, on any other given date and time), but with the appearance of age: people's memories, history books, fossils, light already on the way from distant stars, and so forth."

Science can not contradict Last Thursdayism. However, there is no way to distinguish between different variations of last Thursdayism, no matter how fanciful or ridiculous these are. Therefore it is silly and should be dismissed with contempt.
Logged
Julian
Full Member
***

Skeptical ability: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2010, 14:23:30 PM »

If however you do not want to dismiss Last Thursdayism, I would recommend the official Church of Last Thursday (http://groups.google.com/group/talk.origins/browse_thread/thread/9263b3be16d586f3?pli=1).

GCG might find this religion especially appealing (hint - kitties).

Logged
Julian
Full Member
***

Skeptical ability: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2010, 14:30:05 PM »

Beware. DO NOT confuse the OCOLT with those heretics at http://www.last-thursday.org/. They have it all wrong.
Logged
Hermes
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +18/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 1137



« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2010, 14:40:02 PM »

Here is the challenge again:

if ID is true, there must necessarily exist at least some genes that do not, in the words of the challenge, “exhibit an evolutionary heritage.”  See if you can figure out why.

'Luthon64

and your claim:
The introduced gene would exhibit an evolutionary heritage, since it comes from another organism. If however the donor and recipient organism are sufficiently distantly related, then it should be possible to later identify the gene as having been introduced.

A limited measure of ID could, according to your claim, exist that do not exhibit an evolutionary heritage.
Logged
Hermes
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +18/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 1137



« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2010, 14:56:10 PM »

This implies that a god could have fiddled with a bit of GM in an undetectable way, i.e. practised ID in such a way that we cannot spot it later.

This would be an example of "Last Thursdayism"

Quote
6. Do Last Thursdayists believe in evolutionary theory?


    While it may seem initially that Last Thursdayists do not believe in
    evolution, the official Church stance whole-hearted accepts the
    notion that evidence suggests we evolved to our current forms. Indeed,
    evolution is one of the many tests of intelligence set up by Queen Maeve.
    Of course, it really didn't happen that way, but Last Thursdayists must
    act and think rationally when interpeting their world.


« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 15:22:02 PM by Hermes » Logged
Julian
Full Member
***

Skeptical ability: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2010, 15:16:46 PM »

A limited measure of ID could, according to your claim, exist that do not exhibit an evolutionary heritage.

Sorry you've lost me. Could you rephrase?
Logged
Hermes
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +18/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 1137



« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2010, 15:30:14 PM »

What I am arguing is that a god that performed genetic modification would (albeit in a limited sense) be performing "intelligent design".   You say that it could be done in a manner that would appear consistent with the exhibition of evolutionary heritage.   Mefiante claims that ID would necessarily involve genes that do not display evolutionary heritage.   I suspect that the requirement for ID, as espoused by its proponents, might require more than rudimentary GM.
Logged
Julian
Full Member
***

Skeptical ability: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2010, 15:50:18 PM »

What I am arguing is that a god that performed genetic modification would (albeit in a limited sense) be performing "intelligent design". 
Yes I agree.

Quote
You say that it could be done in a manner that would appear consistent with the exhibition of evolutionary heritage.   
Yes, if we agree for the sake of argument that the god under discussion is all powerful and can do anything.

Quote
Mefiante claims that ID would necessarily involve genes that do not display evolutionary heritage. I suspect that the requirement for ID, as espoused by its proponents, might require more than rudimentary GM.
Perhaps if Mefiante is referring to particular arguments put forward by these ID proponents (Discovery Institute perhaps), these can be refuted by the observed lack of genes without evolutionary heritage. But in theory, a general argument for ID would not necessarily be refuted by this absence, since an intelligent designer could always give his designed genes the appearance of an evolutionary heritage.

Logged
Hermes
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +18/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 1137



« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2010, 16:27:47 PM »

Quote
You say that it could be done in a manner that would appear consistent with the exhibition of evolutionary heritage.   
Yes, if we agree for the sake of argument that the god under discussion is all powerful and can do anything.
I do not see your previous stance requiring any supernatural powers.   If humans can modify a genome in a way that is not detectable later, why would gods require supernatural qualities to do so?
Quote
Perhaps if Mefiante is referring to particular arguments put forward by these ID proponents (Discovery Institute perhaps), these can be refuted by the observed lack of genes without evolutionary heritage. But in theory, a general argument for ID would not necessarily be refuted by this absence, since an intelligent designer could always give his designed genes the appearance of an evolutionary heritage.
Agreed, if we introduce Thursdayism into it, an IDiot could use that argument.

One of the most popular ID arguments is the one of irreducible complexity.   To genetically modify a life form to the extent that a complex organ is introduced would probably require a level of genetic manipulation that would be easily detectable later.   I will leave this to more knowledgeable members rather than to speculate.
Logged
Mefiante
Defollyant Iconoclast
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +60/-9
Offline Offline

Posts: 3674


In solidarity with rwenzori: Κοπρος φανεται


WWW
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2010, 19:48:08 PM »

[A] general argument for ID would not necessarily be refuted by [an absence of genes showing an evolutionary heritage], since an intelligent designer could always give his designed genes the appearance of an evolutionary heritage.
Yes, indeed s/he could.  However, in that case, we hardly have any reason at all to take seriously the hypothesis that “certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.”  That is, IDiocy would be sliced to shreds by Occam’s Razor and also die a lonely death, wholly deprived of any supportive evidence, simply because we have a simpler and better explanation already that makes fewer and enormously less demanding assumptions.  Of course, if you take a supernatural creator god as a given, then the opposite is true.

At this point, it should be obvious just how tricky this science thing can get… Roll Eyes

'Luthon64
Logged
Julian
Full Member
***

Skeptical ability: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2010, 20:38:21 PM »

I do not see your previous stance requiring any supernatural powers.   If humans can modify a genome in a way that is not detectable later, why would gods require supernatural qualities to do so?
Good point, they wouldn't. However if they wanted to produce significant and undetectable changes, they would require abilities far greater than our own.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6   Go Up
  Print  


 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
Page created in 0.556 seconds with 23 sceptic queries.
Google visited last this page December 24, 2016, 01:39:51 AM
Privacy Policy