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Haiti Earthquake

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Description: Haitians praise God amid ruins
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Mefiante
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2010, 11:53:57 AM »

[4:79] Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you.
I am assuming that you hold with the above citation and that it is meant as some kind of defence or divine justification for the tragic events in Haiti.  If that is so, I find myself wondering exactly what sorts of things those very many little Haitian children and babies did to bring such wrath down upon themselves – children and babies who were injured, maimed or killed, and/or robbed of their parents or siblings.

I’d appreciate it if you would clear this up for me.

ETA:  Please note that in an endeavour not to overcomplicate matters, I am ignoring for now the profound ontological difficulty inherent in saying, on the one hand, that your god made everything, presumably including me, and on the other that if bad things happen to me, your god had nothing to do with those occurrences.  This logical misconnect, while glaring, should not discourage the requested clarification.

'Luthon64
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 12:25:38 PM by Mefiante, Reason: Not sura if it matters... » Logged
Wandapec
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« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2010, 12:22:41 PM »

Following on from what BoogieMonster said...
Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you.
It would seem that you have a point. It was a pact that the Haitian's made with the devil that resulted in the Haitian earthquake! (We won't discuss plate tectonics or poor building standards in one of the poorest countries in the Americas - that would be silly!)
"They were under the heel of the French, you know Napoleon the third and whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said 'We will serve you if you will get us free from the prince.' True story. And so the devil said, 'Ok it’s a deal.' And they kicked the French out. The Haitians revolted and got something themselves free. But ever since they have been cursed by one thing after another," Robertson said.
Pat Robertson - a firm believer in the god of the Bible, not the god of the Koran - seemed to think that the Haitian's all sat under a tree and an planned a takeover with the devil that resulted in the earthquake. His god apparently also dishes out the good stuff. Not sure what kind of arrangement they have and who gets credit for what? They have some stiff competition though....
[4:78] Wherever you are, death will catch up with you, even if you live in formidable castles.
Shew, now that insight for you.... Wink
what sorts of things those very many little Haitian children and babies did to bring such wrath down upon themselves – children and babies who were injured, maimed or killed, and/or robbed of their parents or siblings.
Touché..
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nazzeem
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« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2010, 15:11:17 PM »

The first thing I thought when hearing this news about Haiti was…

Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji’un (Surely we belong to Allah (God) and to Him (God) shall we return).

The second thing was…

Sura – 4 Women (Al-Nesaa’)

[4:78] Wherever you are, death will catch up with you, even if you live in formidable castles. When something good happens to them, they say, “This is from GOD,” and when something bad afflicts them, they blame you. Say, “Everything comes from GOD.” Why do these people misunderstand almost everything?

[4:79] Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you. We have sent you as a messenger to the people, and GOD suffices as witness.


I should have added...

Man does not know what the future holds, but the opposite is true for the past. As most of what happened are recorded in history. Depending on where you get the information from, most of it is true.

I think one should understand the story of Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) to get a better picture of what I was thinking. If I'm not mistaken, the whole town including his wife were destroyed.

As for the devil... The story goes;
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

Does God exist;
Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the marvels contained in them, and in the alternation of night and day, coming and going, increasing and diminishing, there are signs, indications of God’s power, for people of pith, for people possessing intellects.

We should also remember what happened with Stephen Hawking when making statements like "God does not exist."
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2010, 15:40:22 PM »

there are signs, indications of God’s power, for people of pith, for people possessing intellects.

Please name a few of these signs and explain how you would distinguish them from random coincidence or accident?

Mintaka
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2010, 15:41:26 PM »

Quote
We should also remember what happened with Stephen Hawking when making statements like "God does not exist."

You become a household name the world over, reach the highest spheres of academia, in spite of an debilitating illness? .And go on to make some very worthy contributions to man's knowledge of the universe. Of course, people like Albert Einstein die at the ripe old age of 76, also being hailed as one of the brightest people to ever walk the earth, working up until his very last days. (A lot of religious people I know aren't that lucky) All this after proclaiming: "I do not believe in a personal god".

Of course, I can tell you my successes in my job and life has been much the same after I became an atheist, no great tragedy has befallen me, in fact I'm doing better than ever. (To which you will of course say "YET!"). Many people I know (including those I meet at SITP), seem to be doing quite well despite claiming "God does not exist" for years on end, some even being raised atheist from birth. (Or, you could say, raised with no religion). What you are picking on is just one brilliant man who was unfortunate enough to suffer from a bad disease. One that many religious people also suffer from. I also have yet to hear of anything that bad happening to Richard Dawkins, or Sam Harris, or Christopher Hitchens. They all are perfectly fine despite leading the charge against religion.

In the end you realize: People get sick. Religious ones or atheist ones, doesn't seem to matter.

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cyghost
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« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2010, 16:00:33 PM »

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Buy all you religious people actually didn't fall for it eh?
Quote
Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the marvels contained in them, and in the alternation of night and day, coming and going, increasing and diminishing, there are signs, indications of God’s power, for people of pith, for people possessing intellects.
People of intellect need more than such to be so easily convinced. You mean night and day convinces you? Surely not!
Quote
We should also remember what happened with Stephen Hawking when making statements like "God does not exist."
Yeah, that sick freck Allah smited him didn't he?  Roll Eyes
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Wandapec
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2010, 16:30:12 PM »

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Didn't unicorns use the same trick?
We should also remember what happened with Stephen Hawking when making statements like "God does not exist."
This seems like a Pascal's Wager type threat? I would hazard a guess and say that Stephen Hawking, as a scientist, would absolutely change his mind if credible evidence was presented.
there are signs, indications of God’s power, for people of pith, for people possessing intellects.


Please name a few of these signs and explain how you would distinguish them from random coincidence or accident?

Mintaka

This would help. At this point, I do not believe the unicorns exist for the same reason I don't believe that any of the gods exists - lack of evidence.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2010, 17:22:46 PM »

Somehow I doubt that nazzeem will grace us with any answers to the several questions that were posed.  I think the best that we can expect is more Qur’an passages, so allow me to kick off the proceedings in an appropriate fashion.  Here are a few instructive ones from that “loving” and “holy” book that’s all about tolerance, particularly towards infidels:
• Announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve (9:3)

• Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

• Fight those who do not believe in Allah … And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away! (9:29–30)

• And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

• When the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

• O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

• O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

• I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. This is because they acted adversely to Allah and his messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and his messenger – then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil). This – taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the punishment of fire. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day – unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company – then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah’s wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself (8:12-17)

• The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

• As for those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment (4:56)

• Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah - they shall have a severe punishment; and Allah is Mighty, the lord of retribution. (3:4)
It should not come as a surprise that their flavour isn’t very far removed from the spittle-flecked rabidity of Deuteronomy and Leviticus.  After all, they do come from much the same source.

'Luthon64
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nazzeem
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« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2010, 06:23:08 AM »

Yes Gods punishment is severe.

I did not comment on the Haiti thing in order to start a different discussion. Also I am not a learned scholar who needs to prove things which has been proven. But in any event as Mefiante was predicting here are more passages relevant to the fact on which scientists agree that the books sent down could not have been written by man.

[5:66] If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.

[2:2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[2:6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
[2:7] God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).

Accurate Embryology
[23:12] We created the human being from a certain kind of mud.
[23:13] Subsequently, we reproduced him from a tiny drop, that is placed into a well protected repository.
[23:14] Then we developed the drop into a hanging (embryo), then developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus), then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is GOD, the best Creator.
[23:15] Then, later on, you die.
[23:16] Then, on the Day of Resurrection, you will be resurrected.

a Scientific fact that was only discovered in the 20`s century. American astronomer named Edward Hubble made one of the greatest discoveries in the history of astronomy in the 19`s. The discovery was that the universe constantly expands. This was later confirmed by Einstein.

The Big Bang Theory Confirmed
[21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
[21:31] And we placed on earth stabilizers, lest it tumbles with them, and we placed straight roads therein, that they may be guided.
[21:32] And we rendered the sky a guarded ceiling. Yet, they are totally oblivious to all the portents therein.
[21:33] And He is the One who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; each floating in its own orbit.
[21:34] We never decreed immortality for anyone before you; should you die, are they immortal?
[21:35] Every soul will taste death, after we put you to the test through adversity and prosperity, then to us you ultimately return.
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Jane of the Jungle
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« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2010, 07:51:13 AM »

Oh my wouldn’t I like to see a copy of the Kuran before one of these guys translated it….. Wink

Quote
English
(In chronological order of publication)
1. Alexander Ross, 1649, The Alcoran of Mahomet: Translated out of Arabique into French by the Sieur Du Ryer;
2. George Sale, 1734, KORAN, Commonly called The Alcoran of Mohammed, Translated into English immediately from the Original Arabic; with Explanatory Notes, taken from the most approved Commentators. To which is prefixed a Preliminary Discourse;
3. John Meadows Rodwell, 1861, The Koran (ISBN 0-8041-1125-1)
4. E.H. Palmer, 1880, The Qur'an: The Sacred Books of the East Part Nine (ISBN 1-4179-3010-1)
5. Mohammad Abdul Hakim Khan, 1905, The Holy Qur'an, Patiala[5]
6. Hairat Dehlawi,1912, The Koran Prepared, Delhi
7. Mirza Abul Fazl, 1911, The Qur'an, Arabic Text and English Translation Arranged Chronologically with an Abstract, Allahabad;
8. Maulana Muhammad Ali, 1917 The Holy Qur'an: Text[6] (ISBN 0-913321-11-7)
9. Al-Hajj Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar, 1920, Translation of the Holy Qur'an, Singapore;
10. Marmaduke Pickthall, 1930, The Meaning of the Glorious Qu'ran (ISBN 1-879402-51-3)
11. Abdullah Yusuf Ali, 1934, The Meaning of the Holy Qur'an, Lahore, (ISBN 0-915957-76-0)
12. Richard Bell, 1937-39, The Qur'an. Translated, with a critical re-arrangement of the Surahs
13. Abdul Majid Daryabadi, 1941 The Holy Qur'an, English Translation, Lahore;
14. Arthur John Arberry, 1955, The Koran Interpreted: A Translation (ISBN 0-684-82507-4)
15. N. J. Dawood, 1956, "The Koran", (ISBN 0-14-044558-7)
16. Muhammad Asad, 1980, The Message of The Qur'an (ISBN 1-904510-00-0)
17. M. H. Shakir, 1981 The Quran, Arabic and English (ISBN 0-940368-16-1) (Controversial, see English translation controversy)
18. T. B. Irving, 1985, The Qur'an: First American Version (ISBN 0-911119-33-7)
19. Zafar Ishaq Ansari, 1988 Towards Understanding the Qur'an, translated from Abul Ala Maududi's Urdu translation Tafhim al Qur'an
20. Dr. Rashad Khalifa, (died in January 31st,1990), Quran: The Final Testament, Universal Unity, (ISBN 0-9623622-2-0)
21. Dr. T. B. Irving, 1991 Noble Qur'an: Arabic Text & English Translation (ISBN 0-915597-51-9)
22. AbdalHaqq and Aisha Bewley, 1999, rev. ed. 2005 The Noble Qur'an: A New Rendering of its Meaning in English, Bookwork, (ISBN 0-9538639-3-X)
23. Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan and Dr. M. Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, 1999, The Noble Quran (ISBN 1-59144-000-9)
24. Dr. Zohurul Hoque, 2000 Translation and Commentary on The Holy Quran, Holy Qur-An Pub. Project, (ISBN 0-9678304-0-0)
25. Dr. S.M. Afzal-ur-Rahman 2001, The Holy Quran
26. Ahmed Ali, 2001 Al-Qur'an, a Contemporary Translation (ISBN 0691074992)(ISBN 978-0691074993)
27. Muhammad Taqiuddin Sarwar, 2001, The Holy Qur'an, Islamic Seminary Inc., (ISBN 0-941724-00-X)
28. Shabbir Ahmed, 2003 The Qur'an As It Explains Itself, Galaxy;
29. ProgressiveMuslims.Org, 2003, The Message: God's Revelation to Humanity, iUniverse, Inc, (ISBN 0595290353)(ISBN 978-0595290352)
30. Ali Quli Qara'i, 2005, The Qur’an With a Phrase-by-Phrase English Translation, ICAS Press (ISBN 1-904063-20-9)
31. M.A.S Abdel Haleem, 2004, The Qur'an (Oxford World Classics) (ISBN 0-19-283193-3)
32. Thomas Cleary, 2004, The Qur'an: A New Translation (ISBN 1-929694-44-X)
33. Ali Ünal, 2006 The Qur'an with Annotated Interpretation in Modern English (ISBN 978-1-59784-000-1)
34. Alan Jones, 2007, The Qur'an Translated into English, Oxford, Gibb Memorial Trust (ISBN 978-0-906094-63-1)
35. Dr. Edip Yuksel, Layth al-Shaiban, Dr. Martha Schulte-Nafeh, 2007 Quran: a Reformist Translation (Non-sexist, non-sectarian translation) BrainbowPress (ISBN 0-979-67150-7)
36. Laleh Bakhtiar, 2007 The Sublime Quran ("The first English translation of the Qur'an by an American woman")[7]
37. Tahere Saffarzadeh, translated Qur'an in Persian and English (Bilingual) in 2001.
38 Irfan-ul-Quran,2008 translated in English by Shaykh ul Islam Dr.(Prof.) Muhammad Tahir-Ul-Qadri

Adapt the Kuran to suit times, after all, Hubble and Einstein  confirmed a theory!
What are a few changes between friends? Roll Eyes
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2010, 08:00:25 AM »

Quote
Accurate Embryology
[23:12] We created the human being from a certain kind of mud.
[23:13] Subsequently, we reproduced him from a tiny drop, that is placed into a well protected repository.
[23:14] Then we developed the drop into a hanging (embryo), then developed the hanging (embryo) into a bite-size (fetus), then created the bite-size (fetus) into bones, then covered the bones with flesh. We thus produce a new creature. Most blessed is GOD, the best Creator.


I don't see that this knowledge is so profound that it should necessarily originate  from a supreme being. Any halfwit individual can deduce progressive growth of a fetus by simply considering the external morphology of a pregnant tummy over time.

Quote
[21:30] Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things.

Now this passage is far more interesting. At least it hints at a modern theory which would have been unobservable by mere mortals at the time of writing. Just a pity that it doesn't go into more detail about the exact nature of the singularity. Now that would have been really impressive. "Solid mass" sounds a bit iffy. I'm not sure that there was mass around before the explosion. Still, pretty cool concept for those days. It reminds me a bit of the old Greek ideas around the indivisible atom.

Mintaka


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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2010, 09:53:40 AM »

So, we're back at atheism 101 I guess. OK.

If the universe is too spectacular and wonderful to have just popped into existence, but could only exist because god created it... How did god/allah get created? Is god not too spectacular and wonderful to just have popped into existence with no cause whatsoever? Does this mean the universe itself is more wonderful than god?

The bible (not sure about your particular story/holy book) says that in the beginning god just was, and he was looking over the "waters". What waters? The hydrogen of the universe? Then was the universe created before, or at the same time as god? or are we talking about extra-universal water? In that case god didn't create water. Making him NOT the creator of everything. But then, who did create the water and god?

This we call the problem of infinite regression. If believers claim that the universe is too wonderous to exist without god. Then by implication god is even MORE unlikely to just exist without having his own creator, because believers can easily point out that god is even more complex and wonderful than the universe itself. But it gets worse. Because whoever created god, is even MORE complex and wonderful, and must then also have a creator, and so on and so forth. At the end you have to end up with something vastly more powerful than god, the uni/multi-verse, and all the other gods below him..... without a cause for this crazy-powerful entity. At SOME point, the religious person has to acknowledge that something spectacular, at some stage or another, was created, out of pure accident... out of pure nothing. And yet they scoff at our view that the universe can exist without having a "cause", when in their eyes, god, a more potent entity than the universe itself, exists without a cause.

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« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2010, 15:12:38 PM »

To say that he is responsible for absolutely everything, good and bad, is still beyond my comprehension. Is there then no place for satan? What is satan then responsible for?
You have not answered these two questions, Nazzeem.

I find myself wondering exactly what sorts of things those very many little Haitian children and babies did to bring such wrath down upon themselves – children and babies who were injured, maimed or killed, and/or robbed of their parents or siblings.

I’d appreciate it if you would clear this up for me.
We are still waiting for you to clarify this, Nazzeem.

there are signs, indications of God’s power, for people of pith, for people possessing intellects.

Please name a few of these signs and explain how you would distinguish them from random coincidence or accident?

Mintaka


You have not offered us the requested explanation, Nazzeem.

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Didn't unicorns use the same trick?
You have not answered this question, Nazzeem.

You have failed to substantiate one single claim that you have made.   Quotes from the Koran or Goldy Locks prove nothing.



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Mefiante
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« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2010, 17:35:14 PM »

Yes Gods punishment is severe.
Why must a supposedly loving god’s punishment for the most beloved of his creations be severe, especially when he made them what they are?



Also I am not a learned scholar who needs to prove things which has been proven.
And exactly what things does your religion say that you think have been proven?  How exactly do you know that they have been proven if you’re not a learned scholar?



… here are more passages relevant to the fact on which scientists agree that the books sent down could not have been written by man.
Which scientists are those?  Names please, and references where they explicitly say that the Qur’an “could not have been written by man.”  And note that theologians do not qualify as “scientists.”



Accurate Embryology
Those passages are only “accurate” about embryology to the extent that the Yellow Pages is accurate about the principles of cartography.



American astronomer named Edward Hubble made one of the greatest discoveries in the history of astronomy in the 19`s. The discovery was that the universe constantly expands. This was later confirmed by Einstein.
No, that chronology is not correct.  Nor was that astronomer’s first name Edward; he was Edwin.  Religious people really do not do themselves any favours at all by not first checking their facts before discharging distortions and nonsense.  All of this stuff happened in the 20th century.  In 1915, Einstein published his Theory of General Relativity, a geometrical account of gravity and accelerated motion.  With it came a set of general field equations that admitted a variety of solutions, depending on the particular problem that was considered.  Some of these solutions indicated an expanding universe, and Einstein introduced his “cosmological constant” (a kind of antigravity, which he later called “the greatest blunder of my life”) in order that one of his solutions should describe a static universe.  It was only later, towards the end of the 1920s, that the work of Hubble showed that our universe was in fact an expanding one.  You can check these, the real facts, in any decent library or with any of several online resources.



The Big Bang Theory Confirmed
Those passages are only “confirmation” for the Big Bang to the extent that Winnie-the-Pooh is confirmation for the theory that some higher mammals and a marsupial can communicate with one another.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2010, 19:16:15 PM »

Hey Nazzie, that's one sick puppy of a god you believe in. What d'ya think of Egypt's attempt to do away with the veil for women? Did Allah do Haiti 'cos the women showed their faces, you reckon?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 19:41:58 PM by Irreverend » Logged
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