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Haiti Earthquake

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Description: Haitians praise God amid ruins
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nazzeem
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« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2010, 23:09:36 PM »

There is only 1 version of the Quran. It is still the same as it came some 1400 years ago. It is impossible to make changes in it. All authorised translations have the same basic meaning.

I do not have the answers you are looking for, I am not interested in arguing with you and I have no need to prove anything to you. Peace be upon you.

But it is said

"[2:6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
[2:7] God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil;"
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rwenzori
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Merda accidit.


« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2010, 05:42:00 AM »

I do not have the answers you are looking for, I am not interested in arguing with you and I have no need to prove anything to you. Peace be upon you.

But it is said

"[2:6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
[2:7] God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil;"

Well, if god did the "seals" and "veils" bit, it's his problem then. Before you fork off into the sunset, for the sake of your eternal soul, may I remind you of this from the Book of Rwenzori:

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The punishment of those who pit themselves against Rwenzori and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, and eternally have dogpu stuck to their shoes.


( Thanks Mefiante for the source text. )
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st0nes
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« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2010, 06:16:20 AM »

I do not have the answers you are looking for, I am not interested in arguing with you and I have no need to prove anything to you. Peace be upon you.

OK, I have to ask the obvious question: what are you doing here, then?  That's what this forum is for.  If you want abuse it's the third door on the left.  Please turn out the lights on your way out.
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cyghost
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« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2010, 09:43:27 AM »

I do not have the answers you are looking for, I am not interested in arguing with you and I have no need to prove anything to you.
No, you are only interested in preaching to us and don't quite know what to do with the actual responses you are getting from the intelligent people here. None as blind as they who will not see.
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Peace be upon you.
And a Pat Condell peace to you too.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2010, 09:48:30 AM »

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I do not have the answers you are looking for

That's our point really. You believe what you believe because you've been told to. You don't seem to have any reason to believe it, hence your scarcity of answers. What I (and I think others) are getting at is, you really haven't thought this through have you? If you had looked for the answers, you could provide them, even if your answers were biblical, at least I could respect you for having solid reasons for your faith. But your personal belief is based on nothing, it would seem. That is why you can only quote us passages, and give no reasoning of why you believe in those passages. Because you have none.

You claim we are "closed" to religion. We made our minds up long ago that we simply won't believe any of this, and are forever doomed because we were "destined" not to believe. I beg to differ. I (and others here) was once a devout believer in god. Don't think your feelings toward the subject are stronger than mine was, that is folly. The crux is, I had questions, I went looking for the answers. The answers scared me, the reasoning confounded me, I lived in fear of being cast into hell for starting to realise that the "holy texts" are completely unfounded. But then I was released from fear: fear of the devil, fear of hell, and fear of god. As I realised this is all just stories. There are no answers because there is no god.

Sorry if that hurts you. It hurt me too. Religion hurts us. All you've told us is why to be FEARFUL of god, confirming what I discovered long ago: Religion relies on fear to control us.
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Mefiante
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In solidarity with rwenzori: Κοπρος φανεται


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« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2010, 11:28:59 AM »

And a Pat Condell peace to you too.
Naughty, naughty man! Grin



Good post, BoogieMonster.  It always intrigues me that, until it is actually pointed out, religious believers rarely if ever consider the possibility that the unbeliever usually comes from a position of prior belief, and that critical scrutiny of those beliefs has prompted their rejection.  So much, then, for “Surely those who disbelieve … will not believe.”  When faced with the fact of rejected prior belief, playing of the “Never a True Believer™© to begin with” card is sure to follow, and hence the “god hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil” sentiment to justify inciting harm and punishment.  Religion is nothing if not self-righteously psychotic.

By way of comparison and in an endeavour to keep things on an even keel, here’s a small selection of relevant pearls of wisdom issued by none other than the ever-charming Martin Luther:
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“Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but – more frequently than not – struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.”

“Heretics are not to be disputed with, but to be condemned unheard, and whilst they perish by fire, the faithful ought to pursue the evil to its source, and bathe their heads in the blood of the Catholic bishops, and of the Pope, who is the devil in disguise.”

“Reason is the Devil’s greatest whore; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious whore; she is a prostitute, the Devil’s appointed whore; whore eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom.”

'Luthon64
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Teleological
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« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2010, 14:40:16 PM »

And yet... there is the argument from reason and the belief that our reality exists because of reason. I think you are delusional and lying to yourself old muffy if you think reason is on your side (or any other materialst for that matter) Evil.
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rwenzori
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« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2010, 14:59:47 PM »

belief that our reality exists because of reason.

Please explain the steps in getting from reason to reality. There is also the belief that our reality exists because of fishcakes, which seems about as sensible as what you say; but please enlighten me.
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Teleological
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« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2010, 15:02:48 PM »

Do you struggle with language?

What will your objection be to Tommy's belief that our reality exists because of reason?
No evidence?
It is an irrational belief?

Enlighten us. Look, I know you guys tend to believe "sh|t happens" and that is about as philosophical as you can be... but there is more to life than that you know.
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Jane of the Jungle
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« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2010, 15:33:35 PM »

Teleological, is your reality the same than Nazzeem’s?
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2010, 15:35:34 PM »

I really love this Teleo/whatever-his-name is guy. He always ignores me, that's one reason I love him, because me having an argument with him would drive me batty.

For one, he expects everyone to be a philosophy major. His own interest gets projected onto everyone, and everything, even the universe. Moreso, he expects philosophy to act as a counter to solid evidence we can observe in our physical reality. It's like were here arguing about reality, and he's here to argue about theoretical world views. In doing this he tries to shift the burden of proof from provable to disprovable (see above post). We all know disprovable is the hardest, and allows the biggest amount of pure fantasy. (Russel's teapot, invisible pink unicorns, Flying Spaghetti Monsters, etc are well within his realm) I can also build some fancy theoretical conceptions about reality in my head. You can't disprove them, but I've found they never seem to change reality, nor bring closure on any level for me, because they are by nature untestable (just the kind of subject matter he adores).

He ascribes some philosophy to someone, then asks them to defend/rebuke it, nice baiting technique you have there... Almost always this seems to be a diversionary tactic, baiting the audience into a fruitless discussion, rather than trying to come up with any valuable input. His modus-operandi seems to be to sow chaos wherever he goes, because that's easier than making a contribution.
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Teleological
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« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2010, 15:41:20 PM »

Err Boogie, feel free to make a contribution towards a topic that you want to discuss with me. As is, these horrible misrepresentations and straw men of yours don't really interest me. Pick a topic that you find interesting and see if you can discuss it in a civil manner (or any manner you seem fit, heck you can use the skeptic.za.org way and we can all have lots of fun) without dishing out your oh so boring usual misrepresentations of others whom you clearly have no hope of even trying to understand.
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Teleological
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« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2010, 15:45:20 PM »

Teleological, is your reality the same than Nazzeem’s?
I think you know enough about me (or maybe not, what do you know?) to at least answer that question for yourself. If you need help, the answer is a negative, however I do not agree or disagree with everything (that would be impossible for all people unless they are willful contrarians).
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2010, 15:51:33 PM »

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As is, these horrible misrepresentations and straw men of yours don't really interest me...... dishing out your oh so boring usual misrepresentations of others whom you clearly have no hope of even trying to understand.

Heh.
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Mefiante
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In solidarity with rwenzori: Κοπρος φανεται


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« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2010, 15:56:46 PM »

For one, he expects everyone to be a philosophy major.
… while perpetuating by implication the myth that he himself actually knows something less-than-superficial about philosophy.  I suspect that he’s such a thoroughly well practised baloney merchant because he’s usually surrounded by people who habitually indulge his delusions of profundity because they can’t or don’t confront them.

Shame, it must get really lonely being so piercingly smart that few can ever follow what you’re saying.  Then again, linguistic ability is an important dimension in intelligence testing.

'Luthon64
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