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Noah's Ark

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Jane of the Jungle
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« on: August 19, 2009, 16:38:30 PM »

I found this on the net and would like to share it with anyone who didn’t come across it before, a little extra info on a subject might just help a new sceptic  Wink

In short:

Could Noah have Built the Ark?

There is no possible way Noah could have built a boat 450 feet long which held together under its own weight, let alone also carried hundreds of thousands of animals, and floated on the tempestuous seas of the Biblical flood!

As an amusing illustration of how difficult it would be for Noah to have built a boat of the dimensions given in the Bible, this page describes a modern attempt to rebuild the Ark according to its given dimensions. Note the following requirements;
3,000 tons of cement, Five bulldozers, 76 cement pillars, 34 sway-brace pillars, 4-foot high, 9-inch wide foundation wall, Steel reinforcement rod, Anchor bolts, Substantial steel superstructure, So far taken 29 years

Could Noah have gathered all those animals?
The Bible seems undecided about how many animals entered the Ark. In Genesis 7 we read Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. (Genesis 7:20). In the next Chapter we read Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. (Genesis 8:2 et seq.). Let's assume the former case, which is most regularly quoted

Creationists deny evolution. This means that the two of every kind of animal must have meant not just two of every single species, but two of every single sub-species.

There are some 9800,000 different insect species known in the world as a whole, he would have to remember to feed them all every day, remembering exactly what each one eats. In a day of 24 hours, assuming that he didn't sleep, that would give him fractionally under a tenth of a second to feed each insect.

What about animals who lived a long distance away? Assuming that Noah lived somewhere in what we now call the middle east, what happened to those animals that came from Australia? How did they get across the Pacific or Indian ocean? What about the animals that live only in South America? What about the animals that live only in the Antarctic? We're talking of an enormous, global planned migration, over many thousands of miles through inpassable terrain. It simply could not have happened.

What about the larger animals? Let's start off with the large mammals, such as elephants. These come in two varieties, - African and Indian - that's 16 tonnes already. Next we can add the rhinoceros (5 species, 2 of each = 10 tonnes), hippopotamus (3 tonnes), that's almost 30 tonnes just in these three animal types.
Now let's add in those 1,500 different species of rodents, there are over 10,000 bird species in the world.

How much food would be required?

Here's a list of what Dallas zoo has to purchase in order to feed all its animals for one single day;
A ton of hay, 35 pounds of fish, 50 pounds of meat, 100 stalks of celery, five pounds of red onions, 100 pounds of carrots, 25 pounds of spinach, 15 pounds of kale, 10 pounds of mixed vegetables, 150 pounds of sweet potatoes, 10 heads of cabbage, 48 heads of romaine, 30 ears of corn, four loaves of wheat bread, 24 eggs, a pound of yogurt, 40 pounds of bananas, eight pounds of blueberries, 170 oranges, 500 apples, 36 cantaloupes, four papayas, 250 rodents (the variety pack), 6000 mealworms, 600 wax worms and 7500 crickets.

They most certainly don't have two of every kind of animal either. Where do you think Noah stored all these vegetables? How did he stop them from going mouldy? Answer - he couldn't. It's impossible.

Full version:

http://www.frayn.net/evolution/claim4.html

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jhkeet
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2009, 21:22:25 PM »

Firstly miss jane, how do you know he couldn't build a boat that big? I assume you are an engineer???

Secondly, how many animals were there back then? Aren't you assuming they were as much as today? And look carefully now, the bible says to take two of every KIND of animal, not every species or sub-species! (And seven of some). There are only about 8 000 different kinds of animals, even though there are millions of species. For example, there are many different varieties of dogs, but they're still the same kind of animal, a dog!!!! Shocked (1 500 species of rodents? Uh.. excuse me, its still a rat!) An animal has the ability to adapt to it's environment (we too), but they don't evolve into a new animal!! It stays the same kind of animal! We don't evolve into something new in a new environment do we? No, we ADAPT!

Thirdly, he wouldn't have to take insects as they can breath through their skins you know? We call it spiracles! The bible tells to take only those whose breath are in their nostrils, that greatly reduces the number of animals. Plus, he wouldn't have to take any fish as well, there's plenty of water!

Fourthly, any third-grader can figure out that you don't need to bring the biggest ones you can find, BRING BABIES!!!! Mmmmm.... you didn't give that a lot of thought before you said it, hey? Here are a few OBVIOUS reasons to bring babies:

1.They sleep alot more
2.They are ALOT smaller and weigh ALOT less
3.They eat ALOT less
4.They poop ALOT less Lips Sealed
5.They are tougher (They fall down and get back up, you fall down and lay there for a while or break)
6.They will live for alot longer after the flood to reproduce more offspring and thats why u'r bringin 'em in the first place!!!!!!

Fifthly, aren't you assuming the ocean back then already covered the world by 75%? He could have got the animals easily if it weren't so.

You know what jane, I do believe all the dogs in the world come from 2 dogs on Noah's ark. I really do. But will you look at what you believe?.....You believe all the dogs in the world come from a rock, which came from the big bang, which came from absolutely nothing. (Thats assuming you believe in evolution, and if you don't I'd like to hear what you do believe in)

And just another thing jany, the ark wasn't designed to sail, it was only desinged to float! You all claim to know how Noah was supposed to build the ark and that it would be so impossible to do it, even with today's machines, yet we cannot even start to build a pyramid with today's technology and the people obviously did it back then, go look!!!

Let me tell you why evolutionists reject the bible, and it's not because of science:

1.Creation: This means that it's God's world and there are rules, and they really don't like that.
2.Flood: This means that God has the authority to judge His creation.(And He does by the way, He can wreck it if he wants!)
3.Coming Judgement of God: They sure don't like the idea of a coming judgement!!!! And believe you me, it is coming!

Hope this also helps a skeptic! Wink To God be the glory!!!!!!!
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Mefiante
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2009, 22:11:26 PM »

Right, who wants first dibs?

'Luthon64
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mdg
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2009, 22:19:08 PM »

 @jhkeet Grin Grin Grin Grin HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
... Oh, wait, you're SERIOUS?Huh?
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2009, 10:18:03 AM »

Welcome jhkeet! Smiley I trust you won't mind me using one of your pearls of wisdom as a new signature quote?  

Right, who wants first dibs?

 Grin  Well, it is Saturday, so I'll hog a few...

Quote
Firstly miss jane, how do you know he couldn't build a boat that big? I assume you are an engineer???

Yes Jane, I hope from now on you'll think twice before challenging the feats of famous maritime engineers like Noah.

Quote
And look carefully now, the bible says to take two of every KIND of animal, not every species or subspecies! (And seven of some).

Individuals belong to the same species if they can interbreed. Can you please give us a clear definition of "kind of animal"?

Quote
For example, there are many different varieties of dogs, but they're still the same kind of animal, a dog!!!!

Not only that, they also belong to the same species, Canis familiaris. But so what? The number of varieties of dog pales in comparison to the number of species of mammal and ... oh,  wait ... we are talking KINDS of animal. I'll have to suspend my argument until we see that definition of yours.

Quote
Thirdly, he wouldn't have to take insects as they can breath through their skins you know? We call it spiracles!

Which made it possible for them to spend 40 days and 40 nights underwater?

Quote
Plus, he wouldn't have to take any fish as well, there's plenty of water!
Exactly how salty was the flood to keep both herring and the osmotically challenged carp happy?

Quote
Fifthly, aren't you assuming the ocean back then already covered the world by 75%? He could have got the animals easily if it weren't so.
Please label crated animals well and dispatch to :

Mr Noah Bradly
1 Carpentry Flats
Corner of Gondwana and Tethys

Quote
You believe all the dogs in the world come from a rock
... well, it was probably more like a slime ...

Quote
This means that it's God's world and there are rules, and they really don't like that.

I don't know about that... some of "God's" rules are acceptable. Take most of the Thou-shall-nots for example. Not all bad.

The reason why I reject the notion of God (for now at least)is simply because there is no convincing evidence to the contrary. Why, have you got some for us?

Mintaka

 


« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 10:33:44 AM by Mintaka » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2009, 11:08:05 AM »

Greets, jhkeet. For now I've just got one question for you. Why use 40 exclamation marks when 17 would have been just enough?
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jhkeet
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2009, 12:23:03 PM »

Where did the slime come from then? Was it not a rock? Please clarify for me where you believe the slime came from.
 
The ocean is only about 3% salty today, it could have been just fresh water. If the earth was a 4.6 billion years old, then you would have a quite a problem then, the ocean should be much saltier today.

Gondwanaland is also quite pathetic, Africa is shrunk about 35-40% to make it fit, the whole of central America and Mexico are gone, plus 2 continents were rotated one way(North-America & Asia) and another one the other way(South-America)

Is a donkey and a horse the same species? They can interbreed and produce a mule. A lion and a tiger can also interbreed.

Aren't you assuming that there were absolutely no debris on the water whatsoever in the whole world on which insects could not float on? And even if they couldn't survive themselves, they're eggs certainly could.(Thats why we have such problems with cockroaches for example and a lot of insects begin their larvae stage in the water.)

As for the species, who decided what a species and sub-species is? Wasn't it mostly Karl von Linne who decided on that and people today who classify them that way? Did the people in the days of Noah already decide to classify the animal even unto sub-species?

There is even less evidence for evolution and I have a few questions:

1. What is morality and why should we have it if the animals don't?
2. Who decides what it is right and wrong and who gave them the authority? (Don't use God's commandments, just because it suits you on some)
3. Where are all the transitional fossils?
4. Where did the energy, laws and matter of the universe come from?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 13:35:32 PM by jhkeet » Logged
jhkeet
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2009, 13:33:58 PM »

Oh yeah, and I assume you think that insects sink like rocks when they hit the water,right? For them to spend the whole time under the water?
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2009, 14:18:10 PM »

Slime
Rocks have their chemicals locked up as minerals, in a comparatively inert manner.  It seems more likely that the chemistry that lead to the formation of organic replicators took place in a watery, or at least liquid, medium. You could well argue that rocks are the original donor of the chemicals. But why stop there? You might as well extrapolate all the way back to stars or subatomic particles right after the big bang as the original source of matter. But the cradle (birthplace) of the entities that we associate with life was almost certainly liquid, and possibly slimy (i.e. containing polymers).

Ocean salinity
If the oceans were fresh as recently as 6,000 years ago, then why do we have so many saltwater species today? I think you underestimate the pressure that a salty environment places on its inhabitants.

Plate tectonics
Quote
Gondwanaland is also quite pathetic, Africa is shrunk about 35-40% to make it fit, the whole of central America and Mexico are gone, plus 2 continents were rotated one way(North-America & Asia) and another one the other way(South-America)
You must not think of the continents as a puzzle that was taken apart. Each continent more or less resides on a conveyor belt-like plate, which rises and subducts continuously . The continent of Africa could well have been smaller. In any case,  a continent is a rather loose concept meaning the piece of the plate that happens to stick out of the water. Its really nothing for landmasses to quickly change shape and size -  in geological terms anyway.

Rafting
Quote
Aren't you assuming that there were absolutely no debris on the water whatsoever in the whole world on which insects could not float on?

I half assumed that the sheer volumes of rain pelting down as described in the Bible would make it somehow tricky for a bug to remain clinging to its piece of flotsam.  But I suppose its possible, since you need only 2 survivors per species (or kind). OK, you've convinced me about the insects.

Taxonomy
Quote
Is a donkey and a horse the same species? They can interbreed and produce a mule. A lion and a tiger can also interbreed.

The donkey and horse are very closely related, and can produce offspring, but will only produce consistently infertile offspring. If the offspring is not fertile, the interbreeding was hardly successful, and the parents were presumably of different species. I'm not sure about the fertility of the liger, though. If the lion/tiger hybrid is able to successfully interbreed with another lion or tiger or similar hybrid, then yes, I would consider lions and tigers of the same species. Lions and tigers would then probably become subspecies.

Quote
As for the species, who decided what a species and sub-species is? Wasn't it mostly Karl von Linne who decided on that and people today who classify them that way? Did the people in the days of Noah already decide to classify the animal even unto sub-species?

Yes, the concept of a species is an entirely human convention. Its very handy to be able to put wildlife into compartments, for ease of reference by biologists,  and making birdwatching more fun for the rest of us.

But I'm still anxiously awaiting that definition of "KIND". You put a lot of stock in this term, and indeed you should, as the survival of the entire nostrilled fauna depended on Noah's interpretation thereof. So, definition, if you please.

Miscellaneous

1.
Quote
What is morality and why should we have it if the animals don't?
If you don't know what morality is, how can you claim that animals don't have any? As it happens, I think animals do have morals, especially the social animals.

2.
Quote
Who decides what it is right and wrong and who gave them the authority?
Us. Humans. Society.Animals amongst themselves.

3.
Quote
Where are all the transitional fossils?
I suggest you try any major museum, or public libraries for depictions. But my guess is most are still out buried in the field somewhere. A fossil is really a very rare and valuable find, and we are lucky to have any at all. Even so, we don't really need fossils as proof of evolution, if that's what you're hinting at. Its just a delightful bonus.

4.
Quote
Where did the energy, laws and matter of the universe come from?
I don't know for sure, but as you undoubtedly know, and undoubtedly disagree with, it is thought to be defined some milliseconds after the big bang. I'm not a physicist, and much as it riles me, I have to trust authority on this one.  Whats your explanation?

Mintaka



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Rigil Kent
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Three men make a tiger.


« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2009, 14:30:09 PM »

Quote
Oh yeah, and I assume you think that insects sink like rocks when they hit the water,right? For them to spend the whole time under the water?

So you only need one species of insect that sinks like a rock to refute the whole Noah hypothesis! Luckily you still have that rafting thing going for you, which remains a good point. Now don't stuff it up.

Please excuse me while I go chuck some bugs in the koi pond.

Mintaka
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Jane of the Jungle
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« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2009, 15:09:00 PM »

Jhkeet  –

1.   No I am not an Engineer, but by your reasoning and lack of common sense I assume your not one either!

2.   So you suggest ALL of these sub-species appeared after the flood?

Quote
The rain continued for forty days and night in such an inundation that no life on earth's surface could survive. All of the people and animals that had walked upon the earth died. Only Noah, his wife and his sons and their wives survived, along with the animals and birds inside the ark which floated upon the water. They ate the food and drank the water that was stored in the ark.
After the waters had reached their highest level God sent a strong wind to blow upon the earth to cause the water to evaporate into clouds and to settle into the depths of the earth called oceans.
One hundred fifty days after the flood began the bottom of the ark came to rest on the top of a mountain now called Ararat which is near the border of what is now Russia and Turkey.
Forty days after landing Noah opened the window and sent out a raven and a dove to search for a place to rest. The dove could not find dry land to rest and so returned to the ark where Noah brought her back into the ark.
Seven days later Noah again let the dove out of the window. This time the dove flew back to the ark with a twig with olive leaves in her beak
3.  Suppose all the insects were air born for the entire time, otherwise they would have drowned or starved especially since first signs of plantation were after 197 days?

Oh and the fish, how do you suppose sea water fish could survive the extreme
Difference in salinity, read my link thoroughly please!

4.   So if any third grader could have figure that, how do you suppose animals like
Lions, Rhino, Elephant, Bear etc’ babies would have allowed their offspring to wonder off in the wild?
 When we ALL know they would kill anyone in their Natural environment, trying to get to their babies?  Not even talking about
Allowing them to take a suicidal attempt over the ocean!

Quote
Fifthly, aren't you assuming the ocean back then already covered the world by 75%? He could have got the animals easily if it weren't so.
Why?  Is this you admitting Pangea infact existed?  For animals and men to travel the continent by foot, long before your so called Noah existed?

So you are assuming animal babies could in fact travelled by foot on land, ok then.
How far did some of the animals had to travel to get to Noah, would the babies
Still be babies after the time they’ve spent walking???



Quote
“But will you look at what you believe?.....You believe all the dogs in the world come from a rock”

Carry on like this and I would think YOU evolved from a rock

Quote
“You believe all the dogs in the world come from a rock, which came from the big bang, which came from absolutely nothing. (Thats assuming you believe in evolution, and if you don't I'd like to hear what you do believe in)
   “

Scientists in history were made out to be the “anti christs” and all of their findings
Made out to be nonsense.  One thing I sure as hell didn’t hear from ANY theist
Was an “excuse”for being wrong and maybe it wont happen in my life time,
but it will!

Quote
Let me tell you why evolutionists reject the bible, and it's not because of science:

1.Creation: This means that it's God's world and there are rules, and they really don't like that.
2.Flood: This means that God has the authority to judge His creation.(And He does by the way, He can wreck it if he wants!)
3.Coming Judgement of God: They sure don't like the idea of a coming judgement!!!! And believe you me, it is coming!

1   Please show me stats to prove they obey their own rules?
2.   Flood:  Show us the evidence of such flood and be careful
Not to confuse it with floods of past Ice ages!

3.   Uh hu if I am right, this prediction were made too many Times since scripts were written.  Suppose a comet hitting
Earth by accident, would also count for judgment day for you, if it happens today, in 10 years, a million years or billions!





And last but not least, Johannes Hendrik Keet (suppose thats what jhkeet is short for)  please refrain from calling me Jany!
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mdg
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« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2009, 15:57:26 PM »

WOW, I don't know where to start? I'm answering against my better judgement.

jhkeet, how old are you and does your mother know you're playing with her computer? You sound like a 14 year old having a tantrum.

Quote from: jhkeet
Firstly miss jane, how do you know he couldn't build a boat that big? I assume you are an engineer???
1.You're obviously not one either, because if you were, you'd realise how highly unlikely it is for something like the ark to have existed.

2. Please explain how animals from all over the world got to the ark?

Quote from: jhkeet
Fourthly, any third-grader can figure out that you don't need to bring the biggest ones you can find, BRING BABIES!!!! Mmmmm.... you didn't give that a lot of thought before you said it, hey? Here are a few OBVIOUS reasons to bring babies:

1.They sleep alot more
2.They are ALOT smaller and weigh ALOT less
3.They eat ALOT less
4.They poop ALOT less
5.They are tougher (They fall down and get back up, you fall down and lay there for a while or break)
6.They will live for alot longer after the flood to reproduce more offspring and thats why u'r bringin 'em in the first place!!!!!!

Just from that alone, I am assuming you've never owned a pet. And please don't get one either, because you don't sound responsible enough to look after one, but I digress....
Baby animals (and human ones) certainly do not eat less, or poop less. Nor are they tougher. I can't believe you're even using this as an argument.
But don't worry, you'll learn more about this when you start biology in grade 4.

Quote from: jhkeet
You know what jane, I do believe all the dogs in the world come from 2 dogs on Noah's ark. I really do.

So following on that argument, you think that all of us (humans) came from Noah and his family on the ark - have you thought this through?

Quote from: jhkeet
And just another thing jany, the ark wasn't designed to sail, it was only desinged to float! .

Have you ever been at sea, in a storm, in something that only floats ? LOL

Quote from: jhkeet
You all claim to know how Noah was supposed to build the ark and that it would be so impossible to do it, even with today's machines, yet we cannot even start to build a pyramid with today's technology and the people obviously did it back then, go look!!!.

Did you know that the pyramids were built before the flood was supposed to have happened? Why are they still there then?

Quote from: jhkeet
Let me tell you why evolutionists reject the bible, and it's not because of science:.

You're right here. Science has nothing to do with the bible, because all the works of science cannot equal the wisdom of cattle-sacrificing primitives who thought every animal species in the world, lived within walking distance of Noah's house.

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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2009, 16:16:28 PM »

One more question jhkeet...

Are you homeschooled? If so, please ask your parents to buy you some more books. Reading from the bible only is not good for you, as you have demonstrated by your ignorance of biology, geography, history, geology, physics, engineering, and just plain old common sense.

And follow Mintaka's advice and visit some museums - even the online ones are better than nothing at all.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2009, 16:16:45 PM »

Quote
Did you know that the pyramids were built before the flood was supposed to have happened? Why are they still there then?

Because they don't float! Wink

Mintaka
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jhkeet
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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2009, 18:17:49 PM »

If I offended you Jane, then I apologise, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume that Noah's ark was impossible but that the thought of every single living organism in the whole world came from a slime that came from rocks is indeed possible.

I believe in the bible and that's why I call it my faith. Nobody who believes in evolution will call it a religion, they all call it science. However there is not one single piece of evidence to suggest that it can even happen and it cannot even be tested and demonstrated.You ultimately have to believe that it took place.

As for the transitional fossils issue, fossils are not very rare. It's estimated that the Karoo formation alone has about 800 trillion fossils. There are lots and lots of fossils all over the world, however there is not even one transitional fossil.

If animals have morals, do plants too? And do fungi have it? And what about bacteria? How far do you take it?

The salinity is a good theory. I might ask then why we have salt water crocs and freshwater crocs today? The salinity doesn't bother them? And they probably had a common ancestor, a croc.

I think its a bit more plausable for humans to have come only from Noah's ark than it is from humans to have come from slime.

As for the babies issue, the bible tells that only after the flood they were allowed to eat meat, so the creatures did not have a fear of man until after the flood.

If the animals have morals, and they may kill each other, why may we not?

The issue of kind of animal is indeed open for discussion, I wouldn't argue about that. But I think you could judge for yourself whether a coyote, a wolf and a dog might be the same as a banana, a bacteria or even slime.

As for my explanation for the energy, matter and laws, I believe God Almighty created it all, that's why it's my religion. And my bible predicted that people would be this way today, you wanna hear? 2 Peter 3:3-4

"Knowing this first, there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying: 'Where is the promise of His coming? for all things continue as they were from the beginning.' ". (sounds a bit like the people who believe in uniformatarianism and evolution doesn't it?)

And please answer some of my questions if you are able:

1.If the big bang did occur, I still would like to know where the matter came from in the first place?
2.Why is there still single-celled organisms? Didn't they want to evolve?
3.If a single-celled organism formed in the soup, what did it eat? And who did it marry Tongue? And why would any organism want to reproduce in the first place? Wouldn't there be more mouths to feed and decrease everyone's chances on survival?
4.Why does evolution contradict the law of entropy?
5.Where is the fossil evidence that insects and vertebrates have a common ancestor?
6.How did the first cell live in it's hostile environment?
7.If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?
8.Why isn't there a continuum in the fossil record?
9.Where are we going when we die and why are we here?

Guys, you're welcome to believe in evolution if want to, but don't call it science and put it in science textbooks.
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