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Quantum Mechanics and Consciousness (split)

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rwenzori
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« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 17:52:39 PM »

That's a pity... I was hoping for some thoughtful insight.

Not that you would be able to recognise it....
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Teleological
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« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 17:55:53 PM »

I am perfectly capable of recognizing people who have nothing to say besides belittling others and their opinions Wink. It is also easy to recognize those who can't do anything but bait people into a mudslinging fest and trash-talking. Better to ignore such critters Wink.
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rwenzori
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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 18:33:29 PM »

I am perfectly capable of recognizing people who have nothing to say besides belittling others and their opinions Wink. It is also easy to recognize those who can't do anything but bait people into a mudslinging fest and trash-talking. Better to ignore such critters Wink.

Refer picture in Reply #21.  Tongue
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Teleological
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2009, 18:38:53 PM »

Did you say anyhting here besides trying to bait and trash-talk? mmmm. Btw, your #1 link in post #16 does not have the lines you quoted for it.
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rwenzori
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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 18:46:33 PM »

Did you say anyhting here besides trying to bait and trash-talk? mmmm. Btw, your #1 link in post #16 does not have the lines you quoted for it.

1. Yes.

2. Ooops - fixed it - it must have been a glitch in Bebeh Jebus' space-time. Or maybe, so much twaddle...  so little time... .

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Teleological
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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 18:52:29 PM »

Did you say anyhting here besides trying to bait and trash-talk? mmmm. Btw, your #1 link in post #16 does not have the lines you quoted for it.

1. Yes.

2. Ooops - fixed it - it must have been a glitch in Bebeh Jebus' space-time. Or maybe, so much twaddle...  so little time... .


1. Ok, if you say so...
2. More trash-talk and baiting
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cyghost
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 20:41:50 PM »

That's a pity... I was hoping for some thoughtful insight.
Phrony, phrony, phrony. An objective observer would note that you actually got what you asked for. Not being an objective observer, I'll accept you ignoring my opinion.

The problem isn't so much with feedback you get, but with your "model" as presented. That you refuse to accept that (from multiple sources now) is no skin off my back and reflects once more squarely on you.

Do carry on and best of luck. You remain, as always, entertaining.

ps One question if you will. Why so many nicks over so many sites?? If you choose not to answer I'll understand.

pps Thank you rwenzori for directing me to this site, I am liking it.
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Teleological
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« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2009, 08:51:52 AM »

Go stalk someone else please. Nemesis? What the... Get a life and figure out what a microtubule and a pi-bond is while you are at it so that it does not look like you are just trolling..
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cyghost
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« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2009, 11:06:20 AM »

Go stalk someone else please.
don't flatter yourself like that  Grin
Quote
Nemesis? What the...
Said tongue in cheek of course but humor has never been a strong point with you... the fact that this has to be explained to you is telling.
Quote
Get a life and figure out what a microtubule and a pi-bond is while you are at it so that it does not look like you are just trolling..
An Internet troll is someone who says things for the simple sake of getting a response, I say things because I mean them. You should know this by now.
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bluegray
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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2009, 12:19:14 PM »

Please stick to the topic and read the rules here: http://forum.skeptic.za.org/forum-related/forum-rules/
The last few posts are really pointless and will probably be moved to somewhere more appropriate...
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« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2009, 20:41:16 PM »

Interesting article:
Information processing mechanisms in microtubules at physiological temperature: Model predictions for experimental tests.
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Both direct and indirect experimental evidence has shown signaling, communication and conductivity in microtubules (MTs). Theoretical models have predicted that MTs can be potentially used for both classical and quantum information processing although controversies arose in regard to physiological temperature effects on these capabilities. In this paper, MTs have been studied using well-established principles of classical statistical physics as applied to information processing, information storage and signal propagation. To investigate the existence of information processing in MTs we used cellular automata (CA) models with neighbor rules based on the electrostatic properties of the molecular structure of tubulin, and both synchronous and asynchronous updating methods. We obtained a phase diagram of possible dynamic behaviors in MTs that depend on the values of characteristic physical parameters that can be experimentally verified.

From the introduction:
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In order to model a biological system realistically the method of updating should match the real-world system as much as possible. When a “global clock” is present, all CA cells should be updated synchronously. In the absence of a clock, cells should be updated in an asynchronous manner. Currently there is no direct experimental evidence suggesting the presence of a “global clock” affecting the MT system making it appropriate to use an asynchronous method of updating.

With this said, there are plausible “global clock” mechanisms that warrant consideration. The notion of coherent excitations supporting computation and information processing inMThas previously been suggested to occur via biological coherence (Hameroff, 1998). Biological coherence, as proposed by Fröhlich, is a high state of order that occurs in a biological system when the thermal energy supplied to the system reaches a certain threshold causing the coupled molecules to vibrate in unison (Fröhlich, 1968a,b). Fröhlich showed that when the energy supply to a system is sufficiently large in comparison with the energy loss, the dipoles tend to oscillate in a coherent manner. With increased energy supply from an external source, such as thermal fluctuations, deformations of the system caused by non-linear effects reduce the energy loss, moving the system into a metastable stationary state, such that the energy of the electric oscillations is larger than that in thermal equilibrium. Provided that the energy supply exceeds a critical value the excess energy of the system is channeled into a single longitudinal oscillation. Thus, the random energy supply is not converted wholly into thermal energy, but is used tomaintain a coherent electric wave in the material. Fröhlich indicated that the channeling of randomly supplied energy into a single oscillation in biological systems is a special case of long-range quantum mechanical phase correlation, or coherence, such as in a Bose–Einstein condensate. The quantum properties exhibited by such systems have been used to explain the synchronization of biological rhythms such as sleep cycles, and heart rhythms. Non-thermal radiation at 8.085MHz has been observed to be emitted from microtubules (Pokorny´ et al., 2001), and while this does not necessarily indicate the formation of a Fröhlich condensate it has been suggested (Pokorny´ et al., 2001; Pokorny´ , 2003, 2004, 1999). Thus, Fröhlich coherence may serve as a viable clocking mechanism for information processing in MT.


From the results:
Quote
The stable and oscillating patterns of MT automata observed via the synchronous simulations could possibly function as specific sites of ion or protein binding and transport thus performing some role in the orchestration of biomolecular activities. It is expected that the addition of microtubule associated proteins (MAPs) and other proteins known to normally interact with MTs will affect the overall patterns of behavior by altering the dynamics of electrons at specific protein attachment sites. Aswell, these simulations have shown that information processing at temperatures relevant to the MT environment is feasible so long as a clocking mechanism is present. The notion of information processing and signaling suggested to occur in MTs, at relevant temperatures, thus remains a possibility and is open to further investigation. Additionally, nanotech uses of biomolecules are of interest and the MT is a candidate for use in nanoscale devices.


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Teleological
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« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2009, 20:42:10 PM »

From the conclusion:
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5. Summary and Conclusion
The possibility of quantum processes in relation to information processing in MTs at physiologically relevant temperature has been investigated via a cellular automata computer model of a MT. The model uses a typical MT configuration of 13 protofilaments with its constituent tubulin proteins packed into a seven-member neighborhood in a tilted hexagon configuration known as an A-lattice. Based on previous results it is assumed that results for the A-lattice may also be extended to the B-lattice configuration. Solutions of the Poisson–Boltzmann equation for the crystallographic structure of tubulin revealed that the interior of the protein contains a region of two areas of positive charge separated by a barrier of negative charge. This interior arrangementwas taken to constitute a doublewell potential structure, within which amobile electron maymove, thus determining the electronic state of the tubulin dimer. The alpha-407 tryptophan residue is suggested as a likely donor for this mobile electron. Dynamics of the system are determined by the minimization of the overall energy associated with the electrostatic interactions between electrons in nearest neighbor tubulin dimers, as well as thermal effects based on Boltzmann factors. The model allows transitions for electrons with sufficient energy to overcome the potential barrier in which the new configuration lowers the system’s energy, or if the configuration raises the system’s energy with a finite probability, and allows the electron to tunnel through the potential barrier allowing transitions, at a finite probability, for which the system’s energy is lowered even if the electron does not possess the necessary energy to overcome the potential barrier. To cover plausible ranges the system was investigated at 310K with a potential barrier height between 100 and 150 meV, and a tubulin dielectric constant between 2 and 10. The system was updated in both a synchronous and asynchronous manner to consider both the presence and absence of a “global clock”. Visual observation of the system revealed no capacity for information processing in the absence of a “global clock”, while information processing in the presence of a clocking mechanism is possible for a narrow range of barrier heights and specific values for the tubulin dielectric constant. Thus, it is concluded that, based on a mobile electron in a double-well structure in tubulin, a clocking mechanism is required for physiologically relevant information processing in MT, and is only possible if the tubulin dielectric constant is above 7.8 with the potential barrier height exceeding 116meV.


Testable model?

Here is how it is related to consciousness:
The “conscious pilot”—dendritic synchrony moves through the brain to mediate consciousness
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Mefiante
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« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2009, 21:05:52 PM »

Feel free at any time to explain in simple language what you have cited.  That would be for the benefit of the less technically-minded reader.  Otherwise one might start to suspect that you’re having people on.

'Luthon64
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cyghost
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« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2009, 21:11:35 PM »

oh wow, 'Luthon64, if you get him to do that, I will worship you for the rest of the day at least.

Better than I have tried and failed. Will you succeed? That would be totally sweet!
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Mefiante
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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2009, 21:51:22 PM »

Yes, that would be nice.  Evasion’s a much safer bet, though.  God’s gravity-induced wave function collapse told me so.

'Luthon64
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