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Threatened by a Christian

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Description: Traumatic event
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StevoMuso
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« on: May 02, 2010, 02:11:51 AM »

I play in Witbank on Friday nights. After my gig this past Friday I had joined a table of regular customers for a casual "hello" and one of the guys started asking about my atheism (I usually don't tell customers I'm an atheist but these guys have known me for about a year now). Next thing another guy, whom I had not met before, leans over and says to me, "Hey! Please leave our table now!" So I say, "Why? We are just chatting and I'm answering this other guy's questions." So he says, "You offend my culture". So I replied, "Sorry, but we're just having a friendly discussion here" (or something like that).

Then this guy says to me, "Look, just f*ck off or else I will f*ck you up!" I said, "Wow, Dude, chill" and he says again "I'm going to f*ck you up ... just F*CK OFF". He got extremely aggressive with me. So I said, "Why? Are you a Christian?" He reckons, "Yes, now f*ck off" SO I said, "That is exactly what I'd expect from a Christian" and walked away. The guy was HUGE and very angry and I hadn't even spoken to him or met him before - he had just been listening in to our conversation.

BTW I see the forum automatically changes my typing to "freck" but it's not what he said.

The entire incident has left me shaken and traumatized - so much aggression directed at me for no apparent reason except not being a Christian. And do you know what else - nobody at the table (there were about 6 others) told me to stay or defended me - they all agreed and told me to leave. I am still in shock - it was terrible.

I just wanted to vent to you guys - thanks for reading. Any of you had a similar incident? This has not been the first time for me, but it was the first time someone got really aggressive.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 10:24:12 AM by StevoMuso » Logged
Brian
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2010, 09:48:14 AM »

Witbank: Alcohol; Huge guy; Religion, sport, politics (race??)....BAD recipe! Move on and learn (which I know you've done) from the experience.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2010, 11:46:28 AM »

Interesting, the reaction (or lack thereof) of the other 6 diners. It looks like they feel bound to defend what they must surely view as embarrassing behaviour. Why? The pack instinct, or fear of standing out and not being accepted?

Sorry to hear about this bucket-of-shyte. One easily forgets that the world is made up of all sorts. Most Christians in my experience at least have the decorum to tolerate an atheist or 2 in their midst, or at most just ignore the unsaved and their clearly superior arguments. I've certainly never been threatened in this way, but have rwenzori's number on speeddial just in case. Wink But at the end of the day, the atheistic path is somewhat lonely and full of social pitfalls. Courage to doubt is more than just a catchy title.

But also, you should still count yourself lucky. Aggressive, unstable types are capable of anything, and this incident could have played out A LOT worse. Just imagine the outcome if, during the heat of the argument, he reached into his polar-fleece jacket's inner pocket and pulled out a Gideon's Bible! I'll sooner take a smack in the face any day.

Mintaka
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 12:09:08 PM by Mintaka » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2010, 11:58:34 AM »

Steve, yours is not the first such experience and the risible polarising narrow-mindedness of it is one major reason for opposing religion.  Ironically, such poor behaviour goes against Christian teachings and, as such, is a not inconsiderable vindication of atheism.  At least some people in that group will have noticed that.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2010, 13:55:42 PM »

Steve, yours is not the first such experience and the risible polarising narrow-mindedness of it is one major reason for opposing religion.

Think back what happened to those who refused to 'conform': Inquisition; Jews/Christians martyred in the Colloseum; Conquistadores in South America; Crusaders torturing Muslims; Muslims ripping out the hearts of Christians and Jews (and the Irish?? OMG)(...it's sickening what intolerance, bigotry (Now Gordon Brown's favourite word Cheesy) and stupidity can lead to.
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2010, 14:00:36 PM »

he reached into his polar-fleece jacket's inner pocket and pulled out a Gideon's Bible! I'll sooner take a smack in the face any day.

Heavens above!...or scattered holy water over him. Evil
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Jane of the Jungle
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2010, 14:30:32 PM »

Steve you’ve been in a situation which many of us fear to be.  Would that azzhole have opened his mouth if there were more people around who shared your views?  No I freekin don’t think so, because even though he is HUGE, he still use the masses for backup!  And for the guys at the table, they are damn “slapg@tte” for not trying to calm the Bear down atleast!
An Islamic, Satanist, Budhist, 7th day Adventist or Jehovah can walk in that door, in their minds thats OK, but jirrr please don’t mention you're an Atheist, no freekin way, that ....they can not handle! WTF!!
Peacefully discussing the different point of views with a “loving” Christian is simply out of the question! (my point of view and experience in any ways)
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2010, 15:40:07 PM »

Not to derail this thread, but the conquistadores who Christianised Mexico and Peru developed a particularly charming routine when converting the natives.  They would baptise their infants so that these would not miss out on the Eternal Life, and then smash their heads against some rocks, no doubt to ensure that they started their Eternal Life without delay.  Such psychopathic callousness is of course only “defensible” on fervently-held religious grounds.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2010, 16:41:02 PM »

A classic case of brain vs brawn.  Or in this case.  Brain vs Indoctrinated Moron.  You should chalk this one up as a victory.  As he had nothing to argue with, he had to resort to violence, or at least the threat of it. 
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StevoMuso
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2010, 22:39:53 PM »

Wow! You guys are WONDERFUL. Thanks for all the encouragement and "we-got-ya-back" support. I was feeling quite shaken and all freaked out with that irrational "rejection complex" that follows such incidents, but you guys have made me feel a lot better. Thanks.

I had forgotten about keeping quiet. What I mean is that I had become complacent about keeping the atheist-talk down to zero in spite of Christians insisting on "having a debate" (of which they are incapable). I think I'd forgotten because so many of the people I speak to (and forum with here and on ExChristian.net) are normal, gentle, non-confrontational skeptics and fellow atheists.

Shit - I've GOT to learn to shut my trap at gigs - I would hate to lose a gig because of some militant asshole Christian.
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StevoMuso
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2010, 22:42:31 PM »

Steve, yours is not the first such experience and the risible polarising narrow-mindedness of it is one major reason for opposing religion.  Ironically, such poor behaviour goes against Christian teachings and, as such, is a not inconsiderable vindication of atheism.  At least some people in that group will have noticed that.
'Luthon64
I don't think Christians have an irony meter. My comment "that's what I expect from Christians" was meant to point this out but I didn't stick around to find out.
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StevoMuso
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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2010, 22:47:18 PM »

Steve you’ve been in a situation which many of us fear to be.  Would that azzhole have opened his mouth if there were more people around who shared your views?  No I freekin don’t think so, because even though he is HUGE, he still use the masses for backup!  And for the guys at the table, they are damn “slapg@tte” for not trying to calm the Bear down atleast!
An Islamic, Satanist, Budhist, 7th day Adventist or Jehovah can walk in that door, in their minds thats OK, but jirrr please don’t mention you're an Atheist, no freekin way, that ....they can not handle! WTF!!
Peacefully discussing the different point of views with a “loving” Christian is simply out of the question! (my point of view and experience in any ways)
Well here is another ironic thing. The Christian I was arguing with was openly gay, as was his partner sitting with him. I don't have a problem with gay people but Christianity certainly does. During our friendly debate I showed him respect by not pointing this out, but my attacker seemed to have no problem with the two gay guys at the table. But atheist? Now he wants to beat me up? What is wrong with these people? I'm probably more moral than his f*cking Domenie.

Thanks again for all your comments and support. I nearly lost the plot there for a moment.  Grin
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2010, 10:06:12 AM »

jirre broe, i would have lived to be there.  i'd like to see that douchebag try that shite with me.  problem with me is, i dont back down.  i effing triple dare that neanderthal to raise a hand in my direction.  i have a bottle of pepperspray i have yet to try out.  and a shiny new baton on my boot.
i bet he was an afrikaans piece of kak too.  make me embarrased to be white, and afrikaans.
steve, if i was there, i would have told them str8.  f*ck them and the horse they rode in on.
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StevoMuso
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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2010, 10:38:41 AM »

jirre broe, i would have lived to be there.  i'd like to see that douchebag try that shite with me.  problem with me is, i dont back down.  i effing triple dare that neanderthal to raise a hand in my direction.  i have a bottle of pepperspray i have yet to try out.  and a shiny new baton on my boot.
i bet he was an afrikaans piece of kak too.  make me embarrased to be white, and afrikaans.
steve, if i was there, i would have told them str8.  f*ck them and the horse they rode in on.
Thanks GCBabe, if I could have chosen anyone from this forum to be there that night it would have been you. The sparks would have flown, I'm sure. And yes, you are correct about his background ... not a very good testimony for his nation or religion.

Thing is ... I would have also given him his due if it had not been one of my gigs. I have been playing that venue for over a year now and, having recently lost Wednesdays and Sat afternoons, I need the income desperately. Oh well, shit happens.

Thanks for your support GCBabe  Smiley Smiley Grin
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Lilli
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2010, 10:39:41 AM »

I'm pissed off that the guy you were talking to didn't even say anything. I am not too good at dealing with conflict (I have been told that I loose my temper too quickly, and get myself into boatloads of trouble because of it, so aggression is something I generally try and avoid) Seriously - he was the one who asked you about your views, and even if he doesn't agree with your views, he should not have let another guy (who had absolutely no business listening to your conversation, btw) get so aggressive.
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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2010, 12:19:59 PM »

he was the one who asked you about your views, and even if he doesn't agree with your views, he should not have let another guy (who had absolutely no business listening to your conversation, btw) get so aggressive.

For all you know it was a setup...the questioner knows where you're at and provokes the discussion and afterward they have a beer together giggling at your retreat...Nog 'n bliksemse ateis opge..k!
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2010, 12:21:52 PM »

Steve, I think you did the right thing by walking away. From your description of the incident, I think it would have ended badly if you had pushed your point. He's the type of guy you cannot reason with, even if he hadn't been drinking.

I've had disagreements, but nothing like the one you experienced.I'm sorry you had to go through that,and I would have done the same thing you did.



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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2010, 12:31:41 PM »

what gets my goat, is that this fokker sits in church every sunday, and puffs his chest out in his ill-fitting pepstores suit at his religious fervour.
i would have chirped him, is this how you, as a christian, speak and act. do you feel you are a true representation of the christian faith, and if so, why should i respect you, or your religion, if you are abviously foul-mouthed and and ill-manered too boot.
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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2010, 12:37:19 PM »

Agreed, the hipocrisy is the b*tch... but there is still no excuse for such aggression. Maybe it was a setup. Maybe the guy is just an asshole. Best we can do is hope he feels better about himself now. I guess its not worth it getting so riled up over the nutjobs.
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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2010, 12:55:55 PM »

in my opinion of drunk dutchmen, this asshat was feeling insecure and inadequite in the converstion, since he didnt have squat to add that was intelligent or relevant.
i can allmost be sure he was the apha male in the group, and when it comes to everyday banter, about braais, cars, bikes and rugby, everyone deemed him the expert.  and when the topic of conversation was something that required the gift of thinking, he was like a fish out of water.  so instead of waiting for the conversation to eventually come around to him, and he had to deliver so form of opinion, he rather threw is toys.  so his macho mask is still in tact.
and i think, the reason the spinless gits who sat at the table didnt say jack shit, is cause they dont want to earn disfavour in the herd-leader's gaze.  typical monkey see monkey do.  disgusting.
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Brian
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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2010, 14:04:48 PM »

Now Steve-boy plan the revenge of the atheists for your next gig...BUT they must all be gay bodybuilders and hit on this poephol BIGTIME! Evil and let us know the result...
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« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2010, 16:59:16 PM »

Paraphrasing Bill Hicks:

"I was doing this show in [some hick town], and after the show some guys confronted me in the parking lot:
(southern accent) "Hey mister, we didn't like some of the things you said in there about Jesus"
"So....... forgive me."
Well, after I was released from hospital...."

This is why I'm sending my kids for Karate lessons just like I did (and am) from a young age. The point, however, would not be to beat the guy up. One of the core tenets is "Self control", and that self control has made me walk away from many fights, the bigger person. Yes, I could deck the guy, but that's not the point. To not push your luck in the first place, is the much harder, and better thing to do. (But it is nice knowing if that doesn't pan out, you can still pack the punch)

Respect Steve, also for having the balls to keep chirping even though you were obviously in an uneasy situation.

The bystanders were probably just as afraid of this brute as you were.

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StevoMuso
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2010, 18:45:17 PM »

I'm pissed off that the guy you were talking to didn't even say anything. I am not too good at dealing with conflict (I have been told that I loose my temper too quickly, and get myself into boatloads of trouble because of it, so aggression is something I generally try and avoid) Seriously - he was the one who asked you about your views, and even if he doesn't agree with your views, he should not have let another guy (who had absolutely no business listening to your conversation, btw) get so aggressive.
To his credit he did at first say he was the one asking questions and said he had one more to ask. But the other guy just shouted him down - and he is a sweet gay guy who also didn't want to exacerbate the situation so he just shut up.

This is where I think GCG is correct in her interpretation of the git being the "alpha male" type. He was actually there with Monica vd Merwe (the model on who won Rapport model-of-the-month last week) and was clearly trying to "be-the-man".

And BMonster - you are also correct - had I pushed my luck and given a clever chirp it would have turned ugly. I felt like saying that if he was looking for a fight he should pick on another Christian because atheists are non-confrontational (would love to have seen his face before his fist turned out my lights heheHE).

Walking away was probably, in retrospect, the most "manly" thing to do, but I will confess, I didn't feel very manly. I felt hurt and rejected and shaken to the core.

You guys are the BEST. Thanks for all the good thoughts and kind words - and I can see you share my shock and anger and it helps.
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2010, 22:51:50 PM »

I feel your pain, I've been in a number of not quite violent but definitely hosting situations. I've been told by so called friends that I will burn in hell with a smile on their face, all the while being completely serious. I eventually refused to back down, this has had the effect that most people who challenge my views eventually disappear, leaving me not all that popular.

There is no question in my mind that having been faced with a similar situation I would have stood my ground and had the crap beat out of me, I would probably have tried to press criminal charges and failed. Sure it hurts but considering how it could have ended you came out fine, forget about it and go on.

I'm guessing your company wasn't close friends, I'd actually want to see what happens if someone like that challenges me and the group I usually hang out with, we're usually 5 Atheists, an Agnostic and a extremely laid back Christian. If the pressure builds give us a shout, we'd love to go have a beer with someone Intelligent.

O, and since this is my first post, hi everyone Smiley
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« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2010, 00:05:50 AM »

I'm guessing your company wasn't close friends, I'd actually want to see what happens if someone like that challenges me and the group I usually hang out with, we're usually 5 Atheists, an Agnostic and a extremely laid back Christian. If the pressure builds give us a shout, we'd love to go have a beer with someone Intelligent.

O, and since this is my first post, hi everyone Smiley

Quite right - not close friends - just regular customers at one of my gigs who have come to be acquaintances (not really friends - just friendly customers). Your crowd sounds awesome - are you in Pretoria/Jhb? Do you ever get to SITP? We could do some Christian-bashing some time (metaphorically speaking of course, no violence please, we're atheists  Grin).

So ... s3c ... welcome to Skeptics.za. You will find many like-minded people here and I, for one at least, hope you find and forge some cyber-friendships here as many of us have.
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« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2010, 18:38:46 PM »

Thanks for the welcome, I'm from Pretoria East. Not familiar with SITP, gimme a clue?
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« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2010, 20:22:45 PM »

Welcome s3c,

SITP, is Skeptics In The Pub.There are monthly meetings and I think there is a regular one in Pretoria. I'm sure Steve can give you more info.  Wink

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« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2010, 20:30:28 PM »

SITP, is Skeptics In The Pub.There are monthly meetings and I think there is a regular one in Pretoria. I'm sure Steve can give you more info. 

Is that the meeting Steve normally attends by himself? Grin  (sorry, that was cruel Evil)

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StevoMuso
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« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2010, 21:33:53 PM »

SITP, is Skeptics In The Pub.There are monthly meetings and I think there is a regular one in Pretoria. I'm sure Steve can give you more info. 
Is that the meeting Steve normally attends by himself? Grin  (sorry, that was cruel Evil)Mintaka


LOL Yes - that's the one. But I've given up on finding skeptics in Pretoria so now attend the one in Jo'burg. s3c, follow this link because there is one in Cresta this Wednesday night (if you feel like braving the highway). I'm gonna try and be there but haven't RSVP'd as "yes" coz I'm not sure.

Here is the link: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=116698438357848
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StevoMuso
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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2010, 21:37:33 PM »

Oh ... and s3c ... please send me a private message on email (go to my profile for this) - maybe we can make a Pretoria SITP of our own - coffee for both the skeptics in Pta heheHE  Evil
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« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2010, 07:25:59 AM »

Quote from: SteveMuso
maybe we can make a Pretoria SITP of our own - coffee for both the skeptics in Pta heheHE 


This is how the original SITP started, with Angela - The Skeptic Detective and James - Acinonyx Scepticus. It grew from there, so don't feel bad if it's just the 2 of you to start off with.

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« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2010, 08:00:01 AM »

hey!!!
the midrand sceptic is being left out to dry here!!!!
waar de moer must i go?
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« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2010, 08:06:48 AM »

I'm also in Pretoria East. Can't do Wednesdays though. Sorry I missed the last one. Don't remember why I did though, but I am sure I had a valid excuse at the time...  Embarrassed
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« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2010, 08:42:17 AM »

If you guys want to set up a May SITP let me know, I'll set up the Facebook event. The main problem is that someone has to take the lead, and commit to being there, otherwise it's more a situation of people pitching up, there's no one there, and then they don't come back.

I normally arrange the Pretoria SITP, but I can't attend this month, so I haven't made any arrangements.
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« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2010, 10:42:07 AM »

hey!!!
the midrand sceptic is being left out to dry here!!!!
waar de moer must i go?

Midrand-ers are lucky enough to go to both GCG - you gonna be in Jozi tonight? Cresta is a bit far for me, not distance-wise but because of having to fight that farking highway, but I'm gonna try because the last one (in Edenvale) was awesome.

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I'm also in Pretoria East. Can't do Wednesdays though.
I usually can't do Weds either - time is such a bugger sometimes. Heck, I work at night so it's always gonna be difficult. Maybe we can find some way to find a common time/day because you know ... it's really worth it. How often do you get to spend an entire night without having to watch what you say regarding religion?

And Mandarb
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I normally arrange the Pretoria SITP, but I can't attend this month, so I haven't made any arrangements.
Thanks for doing it in the past. I would gladly do the arranging but I'm not too good at that kind of thing. Next week Tuesday (the 11th of May) I will be attending a debate on the Kalam cosmological argument by Dr Craig at the University of Pretoria. Maybe we could all meet there (at the Philosophy dept), add our skeptic-wisdom, and then hit the pub afterwards.

Could be fun ...
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« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2010, 11:34:32 AM »

How often do you get to spend an entire night without having to watch what you say regarding religion?
More nights than days... seems the woo-woos need their beauty sleep while all the fun people come out to play when the sun sets.  Grin
Next week Tuesday (the 11th of May) I will be attending a debate on the Kalam cosmological argument by Dr Craig at the University of Pretoria. Maybe we could all meet there (at the Philosophy dept), add our skeptic-wisdom, and then hit the pub afterwards.
Could be fun ...
Agreed, sounds like fun - not an extremely challenging theory to punch holes in though... What time? And which one is the philosophy department's building?
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« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2010, 13:51:11 PM »

Steve, give me the time, and if you can, a bit more detail on precisely where (UP is pretty big), and I'll create a event.
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GCG
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« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2010, 14:00:36 PM »

Cresta is a goodly 25kms from my work.  Fighting the traffic getting on and off at Rivonia, William Nicol, Beyers, Malibongwe.  Doesnt work.
Menlyn is 36 kms.
Pretoria east is 40kms.
Edenvale is 23kms.

all in all, too far to go when you are fighting traffic.  at night, work roadworks, and taxi's.  I'm willing and able to drive up to like 15kms, but that's my limit.
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Lilli
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« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2010, 14:12:22 PM »

Fair enough. Suggest a place in the direction of Pta East, I would be willing to meet you half way Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2010, 14:52:32 PM »

It depends on what time on the 11'th but I like the University Of Pretoria idea, anyone have some more details on the event?
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StevoMuso
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« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2010, 17:50:48 PM »

I'm willing and able to drive up to like 15kms, but that's my limit.

Here's an idea ... we can have the Jo'burg one in Midrand next month (it's not too far and then we can include GCG). Next Wednesday I am playing a gig at Coco Brazil in Midrand - maybe some of us reprobates can meet there i.e. Wed 12th May. I'm only playing for an hour (it's an audition gig) and then we can talk, drink, have fun. Sound like a plan?
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« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2010, 17:52:18 PM »

Steve, give me the time, and if you can, a bit more detail on precisely where (UP is pretty big), and I'll create a event.

I will get the details and post them on your new thread - thanks Mandarb  Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2010, 18:38:41 PM »

Excuse the late response to the OP.

Steve, I think you quite did the right thing by stepping away from the ugly situation. I really don't see how letting it develop into a bar-room brawl would get you anywhere. I mean, if some huge wall of mindless moronic muscle wants to moer you, discretion is way the better part of valour. Else it's bust teeth, bruises, stitches, damages to be paid for wrecked furniture/glasses/bottles,  and possibly a charge with the police, which leads to 2 years of lost dockets, court postponements, worry, lawyers, expense, and major hassle. All for some stupid skaap whose mommy never taught him how to behave in public.

Be mad, but remember him - try to get his name, where he works, and if an opportunity arises, get even. I will admit to sticking the knife in to those who have crossed me on a number of occasions in my life - typically when the bastard is looking for employment, or for someone to invest in some scheme of his. "Oh, you interviewed old Frikkie did you? I wouldn't touch him if I were you - can't say too much, but there were 'issues' with him."

Wot goeth around cometh around, hehe!  Grin
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« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2010, 18:39:02 PM »

Next week Tuesday (the 11th of May) I will be attending a debate on the Kalam cosmological argument by Dr Craig at the University of Pretoria. Maybe we could all meet there (at the Philosophy dept), add our skeptic-wisdom, and then hit the pub afterwards.

Cool! Who is he debating? As I understand it the Kalam argument is the best of a poor bunch of arguments for the existence of the big guy in the sky. And Craig is its leading exponent, and he normally hands his atheist opponents their ass on a platter.

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StevoMuso
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« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2010, 18:48:00 PM »

Next week Tuesday (the 11th of May) I will be attending a debate on the Kalam cosmological argument by Dr Craig at the University of Pretoria. Maybe we could all meet there (at the Philosophy dept), add our skeptic-wisdom, and then hit the pub afterwards.
Cool! Who is he debating? As I understand it the Kalam argument is the best of a poor bunch of arguments for the existence of the big guy in the sky. And Craig is its leading exponent, and he normally hands his atheist opponents their ass on a platter.

Well, Tuesday isn't the official debate. He is presenting a paper on his pet subject Kalam. Some Prof from UP is giving a paper with a counter-argument. It was going to be me but internal UP politics took control of the situation and I lost the gig.

After the two "papers" are delivered the "floor" will be given a chance to ask a few questions. Prof Mabille asked me to please prepare some questions for this section of the evening - which I am doing with the help of Dan Barker. If more of us could attend it will be soooooo cool. Then we can all go and have a beer somewhere.

Julian - read the letter Dan sent me. I posted it here http://forum.skeptic.za.org/religion-and-philosophy/kalam-cosmological-argument/msg10159/#msg10159
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