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Transgender

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2011, 10:37:06 AM »

You seem obsessed with pots and kettles...

I'm obsessed with factual reasoning.

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What we have here appears to be a failure to communicate.

No shit.

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Firstly - "The transexuals who killed themselves were more emotionally hurt than the straights who also killed themselves....". I NEVER SAID THAT.

Yeah hence I explicitly used the word "imply". You keep banging on about the bullying of those two pupils being "worse" than anyone else's bullying. However the result is the same hence you fail to make your point using anything other than special pleading. Facts, please, that can be backed up.

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What I said was "some instances of bullying are worse than others." - meaning that there is a difference between someone being picked on with name-calling and a little prank or two - and getting beaten up on the playground or after school on a daily basis. I should think that is self-explanatory, regardless of who the victim is.

That's my point. Regardless of who the victim is, the problem is the same, and the solution is probably also the same.

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Second - "Restrictive system?! Is this 1984? I would never restrict people rights to freedom of speech." - Where a child or individual is forced into a mold that goes against their nature in such a way as to degrade their sense of self-worth I would call it restrictive.

I would too, I've stated that early on. I respect people who live out "who they are" irrespective of what others think. Notice I say "irrespective", not "we should force them to think differently". Hence thought crime, hence 1984, which I've read, Animal Farm too, and not because they were prescribed in school, because for me it wasn't. I read it voluntarily as an adult.

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Oh and by the way - the comment of "special treatment" was made by boogiemonster. You are Boogiemonster, aren't you? You did say "...instead of pretending the problem is unique to transsexuals only, and then pleading for special treatment and calling it equality." Oops.

Yes I did and you have not given me anything other than emotional appeals to change my opinion. Note though, I set MYSELF up in making that argument completely ignorant of the actual picture. I AM here to learn new things. I even admitted my argument was weak by qualifying my statements more than once... The idea was for you to at least try and form a solid rationale of WHY you think so. You could've googled some more stats, you could've showed me studies and reports, psychological trends, or even a significantly higher percentage of teen suicide linked to sexuality. I have NO idea what that % is, you want to argue it based on a very weak stat, but it MAY be very high.. but we don't know... do we?

However you didn't. You gave me emotional appeals... for special treatment of these individuals, because they happen to fall into a category you particularly sympathize with. I even admitted right up front that my argument is weak, to probe you to prove me wrong. You didn't. Wanna try again? I WANT to know. Do you?

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I never tried to make a case that there is a trend of transgender suicides among school children resulting from homophobic/transphobic bullying. What I did was indicate that there IS a trend of LGBTI suicides among school children resulting from homophobic/transphobic bullying.

You did NOTHING to prove it, hence in my mind, you did try, and you have failed (so far, but I await a second swing at it). I can state some facts too: "The sky is purple and there are unicorns on rainbows. FACT!"

What? You have a PROBLEM with a purple sky and RAINBOWS?! What kind of a sick twisted person ARE YOU?! You ignorant stupid person you! Those are facts and that's that, if you don't understand the purple sky and unicorn theory then you are obviously a bad person! - That's how you come across for me. I have nothing but sympathy for alphabet soup people, but seriously, you don't do the case much good arguing the way you do.

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There is no denying that.

I deny it on the grounds that you make a shitty argument.
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GCG
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2011, 11:20:50 AM »

i get the feeling, that christina, you are here to prove a point.  okay fine.  we geddit.  you had a kak childhood, and you are desperate to spread the word for the transgendered community.  that's admirable.  i too, have been guilty of waving a banner frantically around here, for the gay cause, or conspiracy theories, or whatever.
but you seem to allmost have decided we are a bunch of ignorant gits, and we are predisposed to discrimination.
personally, i am of the mind, that nobody deserves special treatment.  no matter if you gay, straight, from mars....  and by that i mean, special treatment: in the positive, like a LGBTI affirmative action thing, or in the negative, like bullying.
kids will torment and bully anybody that gives them a gap, transgendered, big eared, red headed....  its society that teaches them to discriminate.
i am a huge defender of gay rights, but you seem to think that transgender doesnt fall under homosexuality.  or maybe in all the gesticulating, i lost the message, i dont know.  you said something, that transgender doesnt get recognised as a gender.  ehm,  okay. 
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Definition of Trans- From the Latin meaning "across, over, or beyond
so, if you call yourself transgender, you then say, you are beyond gender.  could easily then say, you are without gender.  OR encompass all genders. 
in native american cultures (before the west came along), some tribes honoured the transgendered and intersexed as shamans, since they are a bridge between the male and female.  and gay men would shack up with warriors as their 'wives'.  it was nothing weird.

and may i add something you might not like to hear.  its religion that dictates how society operates.  the bible teaches the white south african, that gay is wrong, homos are to be stoned.  and yet, a huge amount of the gay community still cling to god's pant hems.  i  understand the fear of death crosses sexual preferance, but why claim ownership to a god that obviously think you are to be murdered on site?  do you think the pope would bless you, knowing what you are?  do you think a church would marry you?

i bet you money,  that if there was a society without religion meddling in it, changing your sex would be about as outrageous as dying your hair pink.  you can thank your beloved all powerfull god and his cronies for your battle for acceptance.

while none of us here are transgendered (that i know of), we are accepting of whatever choices our members make.  and while we still battle the crap that was pumped into our heads from parents and school, we actively try to break the barriers of church, society and narrowmindedness.

with that in mind, i would ask, for you not be so combatative.  you will only find a big-ass wall to face, and your idea of educating us, will get lost in mud-slinging, and end up in flame wars, where i will gladly join in.
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2011, 11:32:40 AM »

@ Faerie:

Why does everyone assume that I'm emotional? Hysterical? I'm perfectly calm, I assure you. If I were emotional it would be anger - and it would be because of the astounding level of ignorance present here. My desire is to set the record straight and to educate those who appear to be sorely in need of it, and making stupid remarks out of that lack of education.

"Lifestyle choice" - what exactly do you understand by the word lifestyle? Is it a lifestyle to be straight or cisgender? Or is it nature? Is it really a choice to accept what you are and have no control over being? What kind of choice is that? If you are told you have cancer and you choose to deny it, will you still die from that cancer? Or will you miraculously somehow be made cancer-free because of your denial? Well, I can tell you the odds on that one. Wink

Let me ask you - do you live a straight lifestyle? When did you choose to be straight? Did you make a conscious choice to be a straight masculine man or straight feminine woman? Or were you always just that way? Do you see the point I am trying to make?

Could you enlighten me as to what a transgender lifestyle is? What is a "gay lifestyle" - or a "straight lifestyle" for that matter? I've been this way all my life and I have to say, I don't have a clue.

You probably didn't realize it before, but can you see now why the term "lifestyle choice" is derogatory to the circumstances of Pink folks? Can you understand now why we see it as a slap in the face?

And no, I am not hysterical, I am quite calm - in fact I'm sitting here sipping a glass of fresh orange juice. Wink

You're right, it's not an easy road to take, especially when you realize there is no other road to take that doesn't lead to a cliff-top, you have no map, no compass, and there is no way back.

Blessings,

Christina


*sigh*

Please read in context:

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As for "lifestyle choice" - I'm not sure who bought it up and I'm too lazy to go check - there is choice involved, not choice as to your gender or sexual preference, but the choice to live your lifestyle,

MEANING:  That you didnt go out to marry a woman and lived a FALSE life, but chose to live YOUR life regardless of what others said. If you're unable to note the COMPLIMENT handed to you, then you're really arent worth conversing with

Lifestyle choice is derogatory but being called Pink is not?

You're full of shit and wrapped up in your own little pink world. Not worth the effort.
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« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2011, 11:50:34 AM »

You're full of shit and wrapped up in your own little pink world. Not worth the effort.

BAZINGA!   Grin
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Mefiante
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« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2011, 11:59:44 AM »

The facts presented in my argument thus far stand, regardless of how you may try to paint me as being "emotional" or even hysterical.
I’m not trying to paint you anything.  After all, you’re the one with the brush, paint tin and the wild strokes.  I merely pointed out that emotionality undermines your argument, which it does, the above-cited overreaction being a case in point.  Perhaps I should have qualified it with “… or even just the appearance of emotionality…,” a strong impression with which I am quite clearly not alone.

'Luthon64
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Hermes
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2011, 14:46:51 PM »

When I was 13 years old and just starting High School I gave my life to Christ as my lord and savior - but found it quite strange that people calling themselves Christians and claiming to love this same selfless loving God persisted in persecuting innocent people for being born gay or transgendered.  As if we can ever help being what we are born to be!

Now what "selfless loving God" would that be?  Perhaps the one that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because men did despicable deeds with men?  Or perhaps the one that specified that homosexuals should be killed?
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Oh wait, perhaps you were referring to the god that created us in the first place....
Christina, if you are looking for the source of gender discrimination, go look at that god of yours and you will find that he is not the "selfless loving" entity you deluded yourself into believing in.  Calling yourself Christina Engela and then pointing fingers at alleged gender prejudice on a skeptic forum is indeed bigotry.
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Christina Engela
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2011, 10:20:35 AM »

G'day all Wink

I'm on my way somewhere this morning so I don't have a lot of time to write a long reply or to get embroiled with any further pointless arguing.

First, I see some quotes from my old site that I haven't got round to editing in some time. It has been up since 2005 and I haven't made changes since about 2008 or so.

Let me say that I am no longer a Christian. Since I got embroiled in all the hatred for LGBTI people I experienced and saw coming from the religious quarter - in particular from fundamentalist Christians, I evolved to calling myself an agnostic. Since then, in the last year or so I have become an eclectic pagan.

When I was still a Christian, I believed that Christ was not the hateful personage some fascist megalomaniac pastors and church leaders promote him as. In the course of my journey I have had the pleasure of knowing many Christians who shared the same belief and lived it out in their daily lives.

Science demonstrates for a fact that people who are lgbt or i are 100% natural and born so, and therefore any religious belief to the contrary is in error. That is logic. Therefore in my opinion, any religious belief that teaches about a "loving creator god" who hates his/her or its own creation, is full of bullshit and a load of baloney.

In the time that I got involved with human rights advocacy and activism, I learned to turn my back on any religion that preaches hatred and intolerance for other people, in short - I outgrew the need for it. Thus I have taken a stand against religious fundamentalism, both in politics, and in human rights advocacy and in my daily life.

Y'all have a nice weekend now, y'hear?

C
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cyghost
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2011, 10:51:03 AM »

So. A transgender witch. Interesting  Cheesy
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2011, 11:27:28 AM »

so, she's not atheist, just anti-theist?  but still spiritual? 
and might i add, as for acceptance, christina, do note that we refer to you as 'she', not he or it.  you know?
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2011, 08:34:24 AM »

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... an eclectic pagan.

You emphatically cannot go wrong with one of those! Mrs Mintaka finds them an absolute life saver whenever I forget to replenish the butane.

Mintaka
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Christina Engela
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« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2011, 15:52:14 PM »

Actually GCG, I'm just anti-fundamentalist anything. Cheesy

And yes, cyghost - I'm a Wiccan and a practicing witch, among other things. "Wicca" is derived from the celtic word for 'witch' or 'wise ones'. A Wiccan is a pagan, but not all pagans are Wiccan, so I'm not sure if you assumed I'm a witch because I said 'pagan'. Yes, I know - confusing...  Tongue

I'm not terribly flammable though - but I often say when people offer me a cigarette "no thanks - I only smoke when I'm on fire."

And on that note, have a nice week Smiley

Ciao.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2011, 17:04:06 PM »

Apologies Christina ...my S/O just pointed out that what I had in mind was in fact an electric frying pan, and not an eclectic pagan. Mrs Mintaka wants me to assure everyone on this forum that she is not the type of person to burn witches as a substitute for butane. Apparently it imparts a strange aftertaste to the creme brulee. Wink

Mintaka
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rwenzori
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« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2011, 18:59:17 PM »

I'm a Wiccan and a practicing witch, among other things

Bleh. Nutcase type religion. ( Is there any other type ( Pikkiwoki excluded, of course )? )
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« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2011, 20:57:26 PM »

A weekend is a pagan, but not all pagans are wigwams, and which witch gives up her wand for the free eclectic Pan?
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Christina Engela
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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2011, 15:27:01 PM »

Hold on while I park my broom  Tongue
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