South Africa Flag logo

South African Skeptics

September 22, 2019, 05:32:35 AM
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
Go to mobile page.
News: Follow saskeptics on twitter.
   
   Skeptic Forum Board Index   Help Forum Rules Search GoogleTagged Login Register Chat Blogroll  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic:

Boy remembers a plane crash that occurred before ghe was born...

 (Read 7084 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
qrios
Meneer
Full Member
***

Skeptical ability: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 119


Get the facts first - you can distort them later!


« on: October 20, 2006, 13:57:57 PM »

http://www.zeitenschrift.net/news/sne-26705-pastlife.ihtml
Quote
The Past Life Memories of James Leininger

If he wasn't born yet, how could a 6-year-old Lafayette boy possibly remember a plane crash that occurred off the Japanese coast during World War II? By Wes Milligan

"When a child speaks of a past life memory, the effects ripple far. At the center is the child, who is directly healed and changed. The parents standing close by are rocked by the truth of the experience - a truth powerful enough to dislodge deeply entrenched beliefs. For observers removed from the actual event - even those just reading about it - reports of a child's past life memory can jostle the soul toward new understanding. Children's past life memories have the power to change lives."
- Carol Bowman, author of Children's Past Lives

Parents are usually quite concerned when their children have nightmares. The tears alone on the face of a child are enough to tug at the heart. Eventually, after the parents comfort their children and allay their fears, the children close their eyes and fall back asleep. Things return to normal, and the nightmares are forgotten.
Logged
Mefiante
Defollyant Iconoclast
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +61/-9
Offline Offline

Posts: 3752


In solidarity with rwenzori: Κοπρος φανεται


WWW
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2006, 15:46:53 PM »

Yes, tugging at one's heartstrings about a child is a powerful motivator for belief.

Doing so does not, however, change the facts about past life regression or false memory syndrome, and suspicion is wise.

'Luthon64
Logged
qrios
Meneer
Full Member
***

Skeptical ability: +2/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 119


Get the facts first - you can distort them later!


« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2006, 15:57:05 PM »

Come On.... Did you read the article??

He was giving NAMES and situations, unbiased by external influences. I find it hard to dissmiss that as
Quote
tugging at one's heartstrings


I'm aware of both past life regression and false memory syndrome..
http://skepdic.com/pastlife.html
Quote
Past life regression (PLR) is the alleged journeying into one's past lives while hypnotized. While it is true that many patients recall past lives, it is highly probable that their memories are false  memories. The memories are from experiences in this life, pure products of the imagination, intentional or unintentional suggestions from the hypnotist, or confabulations.

In this case, there was NO hypnosis, No experiences in this life, nor unintentional suggestions from the hypnotist.

I've got no clearcut solution or explanation, and I still find it very interesting.
Logged
Mefiante
Defollyant Iconoclast
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +61/-9
Offline Offline

Posts: 3752


In solidarity with rwenzori: Κοπρος φανεται


WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2006, 16:25:44 PM »

Come On.... Did you read the article??
Yes, and it hardly struck me as an impartial or well-researched piece of journalism.


He was giving NAMES and situations, unbiased by external influences.
Yes, to parties who clearly had an ardent interest in affirming the truth of the boy's supposed past life.  No alternative explanations, like the easy suggestibility of children, are seriously considered.  Although Carol Bowman, the "past life therapist," claims not to use hypnosis, this does not rule out the possiblity of false memory.  Maybe the boy saw part of a movie, or a snippet on TV, or something else, that got him started.  Instead of seriously investigating such possibilities with a view to eliminating them, we are asked to believe a preposterous thing right from the outset.

And that sucks.


I've got no clearcut solution or explanation, and I still find it very interesting.
Nor have I, but I have suspicions.

'Luthon64
Logged
moonflake
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 16



WWW
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2006, 11:53:53 AM »

ugh, that article was typical of past life regression fantasy. It is blatantly obvious that the parents are, consciously or unconsciously, selecting things the child has said or done and fitting them to the conclusion they've already reached. They admit that the boy has been fascinated with planes since he was very young, and that the parents have supplied him with tapes and taken him to museums and bought him toy airplanes. Did they expect that he wouldn't pick things up, just because he was two years old?

To me, the most obvious evidence of them hammering a square peg into a round hole is with the habit the child has of calling himself James 3. They claim it's because the pilot was James Jr, or James 2, making the boy James 3. The fact that the child started the habit when he was three years old is totally overlooked!

It seems obvious to me that the parents picked up on tiny threads and from them spun whole cloth. It is not surprising that a young child who becomes obsessed with airplane crashes will dream about airplane crashes. And when asked who the 'little man' (i.e. boy) in the plane is, and the child says his own name, one's first assumption should be that the boy is dreaming of being in a crash himself, not that he is dreaming of some mysterious pilot who coincidentally bears the same name as the child in question.

It is very easy for a child to notice that something he's doing is getting the attention of his parents, and therefore to continue doing it, or to find new ways of doing it. It is a classic assumption of adults in this case that children are not capable of absorbing information, of making connections, or of doing things to get attention. They conveniently forget that they have supplied the child with everything he needed to have the information they think he so miraculously 'recalls'.

What a surprise to discover that the museum in which the child spent hours prior to his nightmares beginning contains a restored Corsair (http://www.cavanaughflightmuseum.com/Corsair.htm), the plane he is flying in his dreams. The boy is not remembering events that occurred in a stranger's life. He's remembering events that occurred in his own.
Logged
Saint
Wanderer
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


No Saint, No Sinner


WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2007, 10:49:02 AM »

"The nightmares were coming as much as four times a week, and James would violently kick and scream with his feet up in the air."

What an appallingly written article from an English point of view alone......  I couldn't wade through it!!   Shocked

I do believe in past lives, mainly because of an experience my mother (who is not a fanciful individual) had.  When she went to Bathurst in the E.Cape, she was perfectly sure she had been there before, but not in this life.  When we approached the old mill she described the layout perfectly and kept reiterating how familiar all the natural landmarks looed etc. I could never find a suitable explanation for that and since then have been very open to the possibility or existence of past lives....
Logged
DNA
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 49



« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2007, 11:02:37 AM »

I could never find a suitable explanation for that and since then have been very open to the possibility or existence of past lives....

It's good to remain open minded about things. Just be open minded to the fact that there is an explanation you failed to think of. Human memory is far more fallible than we like to think it is.

Just one option I can think of is that she had been there before (perhaps as a child), and has forgotten.
Logged
Saint
Wanderer
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +0/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


No Saint, No Sinner


WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2007, 11:28:28 AM »

I agree DNA that one should explore all the possibilities, and we did!  No one in my mother's family had ever been near the Eastern Cape; not her parents, nor any of the children, for any reason at all, either when she was very small, or later.

That's why I found it perplexing, to say the least, and very interesting!
Logged
Mefiante
Defollyant Iconoclast
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +61/-9
Offline Offline

Posts: 3752


In solidarity with rwenzori: Κοπρος φανεται


WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2007, 11:30:19 AM »

It's good to remain open minded about things. Just be open minded to the fact that there is an explanation you failed to think of.

As good a definition of "applied scepticism" as any.  The second part of it is, of course, the one that the woo-woo believer conveniently supresses together with the probabilities that are, empirically, associated with the different explanations being offered.

Human memory is far more fallible than we like to think it is.

Not to mention it being constructive, i.e. tying unrelated threads together into a quasi-coherent narrative - a kind of bullying of the observations so that they play nicely with the person's expectations and experience.  Ramachandran and Blakeslee give a very good account of the mind's predisposition for engaging in such behaviour in their book Phantoms in the Brain.

Just one option I can think of is that she had been there before (perhaps as a child), and has forgotten.

Or perhaps she saw a brochure or heard another visitor speak of it when she was a child.  The case of Bridey Murphy is instructive.  I, too, am open to the idea that reincarnation could be real, but I am enormously more open to the idea that anecdotes such as this one have a mundane explanation, simply because this assumption doesn't require us to jettison much of what we do know with a high degree of certainty.

'Luthon64
« Last Edit: February 02, 2007, 11:36:06 AM by Anacoluthon64 » Logged
DNA
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 49



« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2007, 12:15:56 PM »

I, too, am open to the idea that reincarnation could be real, but I am enormously more open to the idea that anecdotes such as this one have a mundane explanation, simply because this assumption doesn't require us to jettison much of what we do know with a high degree of certainty.

The other problem with these belief systems, that even within themselves they generate multiple possibilities. Was she reincarnated or is she psychic and "saw" the are place psychically? There are a number of other "paranormal" explanations.

How do you differentiate between them?

Anyway since we are into anacdotes: to illustrate Luthor64s idea. I recently went to Norway to visit some of my family. My wife and I took a trip to Bergen (a really beautiful city), and when I saw one of the sculptures on the streets I told my wife that it was amazing that I remember clearly seeing this sculpture when I was there as a child.

It turns out, speaking to my dad, that we didn't go to Bergen when I was a kid. I obviously saw it on a website while researching our trip, but even now I can't remember seeing it. I did visit a lot of websites deciding what we were going to do, so it's not so easy to remember everything that I saw. (Of course perhaps it's a reincarnation experience, but I'm pretty sure I was a Bacteria in my last life, which is why I can't remember it  Grin)

As Luthor64 said, we construct things in our memories too. There have been a number of studies that illustrate that. I don't feel like finding links right now, I have a ton of work to get through, so I'll leave it up to you if you are interested.

Later...
Logged
moonflake
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 16



WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2007, 14:30:22 PM »

I have also experienced an eerie sense of deja vu when walking into a South African mill. Of course, my first conclusion was not that I had been there in a past life. Rather, I realised after some thought that in SA, one 18th century Dutch-style mill is pretty much identical to another, and a barely-remembered childhood school trip to Mostert Mill was the cause of the sense of familiarity.

The human memory is fallible. We invent things that didn't happen and remember them as fact. We forget things that did happen, and then are unable to explain a sense of having seen something before. And sometimes, over the years of telling a story over and over, we embellish and the embellishments become part of the memory, and we are incapable of noticing this process. One of the biggest mistakes anyone can make is in assuming that they can trust their own memory.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  


 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
Page created in 2.575 seconds with 24 sceptic queries.
Google visited last this page February 26, 2019, 10:24:27 AM
Privacy Policy