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Author Topic:

Another wonder of GPS technology .... or maybe not?

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Rigil Kent
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« on: August 03, 2013, 11:09:07 AM »

Skeptical about ...
... because how would a satellite know if your house has a tv in it, unless the tv also broadcasts some signal or the other.

ETA: Not my bill, by the way. Evil
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 11:44:48 AM by Rigil Kent » Logged
Hermes
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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 13:48:25 PM »

The satellite does not track your TV, it tracks your licence.  Tracking anything in my study is quite an achievement.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 15:26:06 PM »

The satellite does not track your TV, it tracks your licence.
Are you being serious? Does the licence transmit something? Mine's just a piece of paper! Huh? Huh?

Even so, the SABC still has to detect a TV to draw any conclusions. If they don't detect a licence in a house, it may well be that there is no TV either.

Rigil
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 22:43:22 PM »

All this means is that they know who has a TV license, and their addresses. If they happen to stand outside your house they can tell if you have a TV license or not by checking their database for addresses in the general vicinity of a person holding a GPS, and seeing if you're one of them.

They are deliberately trying to make this sound scarier than it is.

Quote
it may well be that there is no TV either.

I have a distaste for their "guilty until proven innocent" ways. I bought a TV, big deal, that doesn't mean I watch any broadcast TV. However I must still have a TV license until such time as I've proven that I had the reception equipment in the TV removed by a "qualified technician". All this so that I can fund stuff like SABC propaga.... I mean news.
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brianvds
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 04:16:37 AM »

I have a distaste for their "guilty until proven innocent" ways. I bought a TV, big deal, that doesn't mean I watch any broadcast TV. However I must still have a TV license until such time as I've proven that I had the reception equipment in the TV removed by a "qualified technician". All this so that I can fund stuff like SABC propaga.... I mean news.

I wonder whether, under our new and liberal constitution, you are required to let a TV license inspector into your house without a search warrant.
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 06:37:15 AM »

I refuse to buy a TV licence as a matter of principle.  Not only do I not watch SABC's crap, I don't see why the SABC, as a commercial entity, should be given an advantage in the form of a coerced handout from the public which its competitors do not enjoy.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 07:52:12 AM »

They are deliberately trying to make this sound scarier than it is.
I think so too. Its like they are using the terms "GPS and GSI" like a crystal healer would "energy and quantum".

I don't see why the SABC, as a commercial entity, should be given an advantage in the form of a coerced handout from the public which its competitors do not enjoy.
Interesting point, that. Undecided

Rigil
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cr1t
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 08:47:30 AM »

I refuse to buy a TV licence as a matter of principle.  Not only do I not watch SABC's crap, I don't see why the SABC, as a commercial entity, should be given an advantage in the form of a coerced handout from the public which its competitors do not enjoy.

Well, we all have to fight the system in our own special way.  Tongue
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 10:02:23 AM »

[...] I don't see why the SABC, as a commercial entity, should be given an advantage in the form of a coerced handout from the public which its competitors do not enjoy.

Or bailouts for SAA, Eskom, SAPO, Transnet, Telkom....

And then there are still those who believe the best thing for this country is nationalising mines. And not just dolts either, I had a frightening conversation with a friend a while ago who seems to have swung from idealising Rand-like anarchy to Castro-like top-down management: "For the people". It seems some people just can't hold a middle-ground opinion.
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brianvds
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 14:45:10 PM »

[...] I don't see why the SABC, as a commercial entity, should be given an advantage in the form of a coerced handout from the public which its competitors do not enjoy.

Or bailouts for SAA, Eskom, SAPO, Transnet, Telkom....

And then there are still those who believe the best thing for this country is nationalising mines. And not just dolts either, I had a frightening conversation with a friend a while ago who seems to have swung from idealising Rand-like anarchy to Castro-like top-down management: "For the people". It seems some people just can't hold a middle-ground opinion.

Apparently, a libertarian party is about to be founded in South Africa, and may participate in next year's election. I may well vote for them; I don't really know who else I would want to vote for, apart from the Dagga Party. :-)
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Mefiante
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 15:15:25 PM »

There was a Libertarian Party (LP) in SA as long as 30 years ago already.  It fell apart in the late 90s (IIRC) owing to too many irrelevant squabbles about what Ayn Rand really meant, and it was succeeded by another flash-in-the-pan party with a strong libertarian bent calling itself the KISS Party (Keep It Straight and Simple).  That one, too, died in short order as a result of a similar failure to herd cats.

Perhaps you’re thinking of the Ubuntu Party?  If so, you ought to know that its founder, Michael Tellinger, is a total conspiracy- and UFO nut who also buys wholesale into several other irrationalities*.  While that doesn’t mean his heart’s not in the right place, it does leave one to wonder where his head’s at in terms of how he means to realise his cultish and frankly unrealistic visions.

'Luthon64



*On a side note, it may well be selection/confirmation bias talking, but it seems to me that strong libertarian and equally strong woo-woo convictions tend to go hand-in-hand.  Maybe it’s because one common way of dodging criticism of one’s cherished woo-woo beliefs is to assert one’s right to believe freely without any external infringement, and so libertarianism is really just an extended defence of offbeat notions.  But I’m merely speculating.
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cr1t
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« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 08:41:45 AM »

There was a Libertarian Party (LP) in SA as long as 30 years ago already.  It fell apart in the late 90s (IIRC) owing to too many irrelevant squabbles about what Ayn Rand really meant, and it was succeeded by another flash-in-the-pan party with a strong libertarian bent calling itself the KISS Party (Keep It Straight and Simple).  That one, too, died in short order as a result of a similar failure to herd cats.

Perhaps you’re thinking of the Ubuntu Party?  If so, you ought to know that its founder, Michael Tellinger, is a total conspiracy- and UFO nut who also buys wholesale into several other irrationalities*.  While that doesn’t mean his heart’s not in the right place, it does leave one to wonder where his head’s at in terms of how he means to realise his cultish and frankly unrealistic visions.

'Luthon64



*On a side note, it may well be selection/confirmation bias talking, but it seems to me that strong libertarian and equally strong woo-woo convictions tend to go hand-in-hand.  Maybe it’s because one common way of dodging criticism of one’s cherished woo-woo beliefs is to assert one’s right to believe freely without any external infringement, and so libertarianism is really just an extended defence of offbeat notions.  But I’m merely speculating.


The more I think about it I like the Libertarian ideas. But I also think it is one of those things
that work better on paper than in real life, like communism. But it would be interesting if you could run
the experimant to see how it works.

Maybe we can do a reality program, where we create a self sufficient community run on Libertarian principles.
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Tweefo
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« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2013, 11:06:33 AM »

Back at the end of Apartheid there was a book out called "The Solution" I think. The authors proposed a many "canton" system, where every one would make it's own rules and govern itself. People would then "vote with their feet". The borders would not be set, the owners on a border can decide to join the one or the other. This way, well run cantons or states, would grow. You can then have a Boere staat around Orania, a taxfree state or a communist one and so on. The heads of the cantons would then take turns to be the president of the country.
Maybe another one of those ideas that sound good on paper but it really made sense to me.
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Brian
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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2013, 12:37:57 PM »

Quote
Back at the end of Apartheid there was a book out called "The Solution" I think
That was Leon Louw's book I believe of the Freemarket Foundation. There's a lot to say for the Swiss Canton system. It's worked for centuries although I don't think we have a libertarian mindset in this country at all....it's all about control here; statism, communism and totalitarianism is where it's due to end up.
As I recall the borders are set but can be amended if two cantons get something like a 2/3 majority. The national govt has only 5 depts. Can anyone on this site name (no Googling!) the Swiss head of state?
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2013, 13:51:10 PM »

Miss Emma N. Tahler of the Fondue Party?
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brianvds
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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 14:03:12 PM »

There was a Libertarian Party (LP) in SA as long as 30 years ago already.  It fell apart in the late 90s (IIRC) owing to too many irrelevant squabbles about what Ayn Rand really meant,


That's always the problem with libertarians.

Quote
and it was succeeded by another flash-in-the-pan party with a strong libertarian bent calling itself the KISS Party (Keep It Straight and Simple).  That one, too, died in short order as a result of a similar failure to herd cats.


And that is another problem with libertarianism in general: they are by definition not herd animals. :-)

Quote
Perhaps you’re thinking of the Ubuntu Party?  If so, you ought to know that its founder, Michael Tellinger, is a total conspiracy- and UFO nut who also buys wholesale into several other irrationalities*.  While that doesn’t mean his heart’s not in the right place, it does leave one to wonder where his head’s at in terms of how he means to realise his cultish and frankly unrealistic visions.


Don't know about this one. Libertarians are often conspiracy nuts. Mistrust government enough, and you will believe any dark tales about the government.

I do not necessarily want a libertarian party to win an election, mind you. But I think we can do with a libertarian voice in government. If they ever look like they are going to win an election, I may well start voting against them. :-)

However, at the moment we are in far more danger of a naive and ultimately rather repressive nanny state, or ending up with the likes of Julius Malema as president.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 14:09:07 PM »

Rigil, Emma is now married to Vaulter von Bankencuckootoblerone.



Brianvds, please don’t get me wrong.  In principle I also identify strongly with libertarian values.  I suspect that most individuals raised in modern secular liberal democracies would do likewise.  The problem is basic human nature where inevitably some individuals will constantly jockey for strategic advantage/status/position at the expense of others, and/or attempt to arrogate laissez-faire for themselves alone, all the while denying it to others.  In such circumstances, minimalist government leaves the door wide open to abuses by Big Business.  On the other hand, too much government usually impedes all growth (other than its own) and also usually results in increasing government abuses.

Unfortunately, nobody’s yet figured out the magic formula.  Maybe there isn’t one because humanity is too volatile in its pursuits.

'Luthon64
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cr1t
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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 14:17:01 PM »

Penn from Penn and Teller, is a big libertarian, I never really took them seriously until I heard him speak about it.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2013, 16:04:43 PM »

Rigil, Emma is now married to Vaulter von Bankencuckootoblerone.

I've often wondered about that chocolate. For instance, is it really made from cow's milk or is it simply an ozonolytic product of Switzerland's vast natural reserves of bistoblerene.

The unusual shape of the boxes can at least be easily explained by considering that any other cardboard format would leave the candy severely sterically hindered.

tobleryl
            \
             C =O
            /
tobleryl


Consequently, Toblerone boxes are often called iupacs.

Rigil
    
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Mefiante
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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 16:44:45 PM »

Grin

There’s another theory concerning the familiar Toblerone shape.  Every Swiss chocolate vendor allegedly carries a secret stash of Toblerone that’s in the shape of a normal slab and subtly relabelled “Toblerzero”.  (“Tobler” is Swiss mountaintop slang for a sharp poke.)  However, said secret stash is for sale only to people known to be Swiss citizens who have been sworn to silence, as identified by their greenish-brown lederhosen and unintelligible speaking manner.  The Toblerone known to outsiders is a directed Swiss assault on the rest of humanity.  Its aim appears to be to quite simple: spreading cleft palates.

'Luthon64
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brianvds
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 17:05:25 PM »

Brianvds, please don’t get me wrong.  In principle I also identify strongly with libertarian values.  I suspect that most individuals raised in modern secular liberal democracies would do likewise.  The problem is basic human nature where inevitably some individuals will constantly jockey for strategic advantage/status/position at the expense of others, and/or attempt to arrogate laissez-faire for themselves alone, all the while denying it to others.  In such circumstances, minimalist government leaves the door wide open to abuses by Big Business.  On the other hand, too much government usually impedes all growth (other than its own) and also usually results in increasing government abuses.

Yup, what we really need is a leftwing libertarian party, that is, one that is liberal on social issues, but more leftish on economic ones. I have no big issue with government regulating big business, or providing basic services like health and welfare. What I don't want, is government invading everyone's private life, or getting so hung up on the evils of big business that it ends up sabotaging the economy or persecuting mom-and-pop stores for not providing their part time cleaning lady with a salary exceeding the store's turnover, and full health and retirement benefits. That kind of thing does not benefit anyone at all, except the politicians.

The traditional liberal parties are supposed to play this role of liberal but also caring, but alas, someone like Mrs. Zille strikes me as every bit as authoritarian as anyone in the ANC. That is the impression I get when she goes on, for example, about sending the army into areas where there are drug wars (instead of doing the obvious, namely to legalize the drugs). The DA, badly needing to expand its support base, nowadays seems to be the "we-can-out-ANC-the-ANC" party.

This leaves me in a position where I feel like just withholding my vote altogether. If I do vote, it will have to be libertarian or nothing, hence the Dagga Party (which might well also be a bunch of clowns - when it comes to the dagga issue they are far more likely to start yammering about the health benefits of the plant than about issues of basic personal liberty) or the libertarians (and if their leader is a UFO nut, then so be it as long as he can keep his nuttery separate from his prospective administration).

Well, I don't know. I may find it impossible to bring myself to vote for either a UFO nut or a cannabis oil alternative health nut, in which case I'll spend polling day at home, indulging in my hobbies or investigating the possibilities emigrating.
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2013, 17:26:53 PM »

Withholding your vote is the same as voting for the biggest party. I vote for whoever is the biggest opposition, even if that is (one day) the ANC. Any party with too much say can do what they want, so my aim is to limit the damage.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2013, 18:17:14 PM »

Brianvds, please don’t get me wrong.  In principle I also identify strongly with libertarian values.

Heh, as do I. However I didn't know we had a libertarian party, much less that it was run by a nutter. Sad that.

It fell apart in the late 90s (IIRC) owing to too many irrelevant squabbles about what Ayn Rand really meant

This kind of personality cult gets my goat. I think Rand was right about some stuff, but that doesn't mean everything she said needs to be followed to the letter (and the fact that people argue about it points to bible-like problems). The mere thought makes me shudder. SHUDDER I say! For much the same reason I lamented to start this tangent: Just because extreme A is bad it doesn't mean we have to all instantly swing to extreme B. There are probably dragons over at extreme B too.

The irony is Rand disliked central authority and has become an authority like that herself. Note: I don't mean to sound like a Rand fanboy, because I'm not (for reasons stated in another thread some time ago).
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cr1t
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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2013, 08:25:33 AM »

Maybe we should start our own party, the Rational party.

The trick to politics is getting money from the rich, and votes from the poor,
and promising both to protect them from each other.
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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2013, 10:02:04 AM »

Maybe we should start our own party, the Rational party.

The trick to politics is getting money from the rich, and votes from the poor,
and promising both to protect them from each other
.
No, that sounds like rapartheid.  Call it the African Rational Congress.
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« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2013, 10:24:43 AM »

Maybe we should start our own party, the Rational party.

The trick to politics is getting money from the rich, and votes from the poor,
and promising both to protect them from each other.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2013, 11:39:17 AM »

I'd call it the Rational Liberation Movement.

See what I did there? Tongue
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« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2013, 14:14:09 PM »

Penn from Penn and Teller, is a big libertarian, I never really took them seriously until I heard him speak about it.
What does Teller say?
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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2013, 15:43:51 PM »

What does Teller say?
In this case, it likely won’t be “Bullshit!”.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2013, 17:14:47 PM »



It is especially their stance against prohibitions of all sorts that I am in strong sympathy with. I always have this feeling that the line between a nanny state and a police state is a thin and blurry one.
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cr1t
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« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2013, 09:30:16 AM »



It is especially their stance against prohibitions of all sorts that I am in strong sympathy with. I always have this feeling that the line between a nanny state and a police state is a thin and blurry one.



I agree, I have no issue with people doing anything they want as long as they are responsible.
But lets be honest people on drugs or alcohol are not, And if you going to use my tax money to
pick them up in an Ambulance when they are busy OD, that is where I start saying maybe it should not
be legal.
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« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2013, 15:11:45 PM »



It is especially their stance against prohibitions of all sorts that I am in strong sympathy with. I always have this feeling that the line between a nanny state and a police state is a thin and blurry one.



I agree, I have no issue with people doing anything they want as long as they are responsible.
But lets be honest people on drugs or alcohol are not, And if you going to use my tax money to
pick them up in an Ambulance when they are busy OD, that is where I start saying maybe it should not
be legal.

No, you should use their tax money.  Legalise the stuff and tax it, just like booze & fags.  The money that was paid to organised crime (dealers, &c.) can be paid instead to disorganised crime (government).  At present, your tax money goes to scraping them off the pavements and the fiscus receives nothing.
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« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2013, 16:49:11 PM »

Speaking of politics, a colleague of mine, who is a Zimbabwean, told me this joke:

Robert Mugabe suggested to his wife and three children that, to celebrate his recent re-election as president, they all take a holiday to the Bahamas together. They all liked the idea except that they preferred Mauritius as destination.

Since they couldn't come to an agreement on the matter, they decided to put it to the vote. They ended up going to the Bahamas: Mugabe won 70% of the votes...

 Grin

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« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2013, 19:58:08 PM »

disorganised crime (government)
Grin
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« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2013, 08:28:46 AM »



It is especially their stance against prohibitions of all sorts that I am in strong sympathy with. I always have this feeling that the line between a nanny state and a police state is a thin and blurry one.



I agree, I have no issue with people doing anything they want as long as they are responsible.
But lets be honest people on drugs or alcohol are not, And if you going to use my tax money to
pick them up in an Ambulance when they are busy OD, that is where I start saying maybe it should not
be legal.

No, you should use their tax money.  Legalise the stuff and tax it, just like booze & fags.  The money that was paid to organised crime (dealers, &c.) can be paid instead to disorganised crime (government).  At present, your tax money goes to scraping them off the pavements and the fiscus receives nothing.


I suspect that it would have to be so heavily taxed that there would then still be a black market much like cigarettes and booze.
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« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2014, 09:02:53 AM »


I have a distaste for their "guilty until proven innocent" ways. I bought a TV, big deal, that doesn't mean I watch any broadcast TV. However I must still have a TV license until such time as I've proven that I had the reception equipment in the TV removed by a "qualified technician". All this so that I can fund stuff like SABC propaga.... I mean news.

I've wondered when the digital transmission will come in that you can claim if you don't own a set top box. you don't have to pay the TV lic.
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« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2014, 10:46:20 AM »

That's a very good point, once they suspend analogue TV transmissions.

However, isn't the contention also that radio equipment in your car can receive SABC radio signals and hence you're once again indebted?
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2014, 10:56:20 AM »

I've wondered when the digital transmission will come in that you can claim if you don't own a set top box. you don't have to pay the TV lic.

I doubt it. By analogy (or soon by digalogy) , you still need a permit for your rifle, whether it has bullets or not. And for your wife, whether she irons or not.

Rigil
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« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2014, 13:53:52 PM »

That's a very good point, once they suspend analogue TV transmissions.
However, isn't the contention also that radio equipment in your car can receive SABC radio signals and hence you're once again indebted?


I think technically that is the law, but they don't enforce radio.

I doubt it. By analogy (or soon by digalogy) , you still need a permit for your rifle, whether it has bullets or not. And for your wife, whether she irons or not.
Rigil


Funny but i disagree, according to there own definition

“television set”: means any apparatus designed or adapted to be capable of receiving  transmissions broadcast in the course of a television broadcasting service; and includes computers fitted with electronic broadcast cards (television tuner cards) and the electronic broadcast cards themselves;
http://www.sabc.co.za/wps/portal/SABC/tvlicterms

So if you can't receive a signal you don't owe them squat.
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