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No, not around the eyes!

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Brian
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« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2014, 16:16:00 PM »

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We therefore need an example of how a normally voluntary function becoming involuntary will help the organism.

Hmm. Let's see. shitting yourself...easy peasy! Involuntary functions such as sweating and shivering are easily induced under circumstances that don't warrant it: e.g. shivering in the heat and vice versa. Survival and usefulness? I would suspect that if one could get a subject to "switch off" senses in certain threatening situations, you would be able to increase the chances of survival:e.g. reduce heart rate (much like Buddhist monks have been known to be able to do) you would be able to survive extreme cold to a certain degree.Huh??

Quote
Hypnosis actually has a long history of helping people manage pain. In the early 19th century before the invention of reliable anesthesia, hypnosis was used in surgery to not only eliminate the pain of surgery, but also to improve the odds of the patients survival.

Hypnosis is still used for surgery to this day and a simple search of youtube will show a variety of videos of people undergoing procedures without the use of any anesthesia.
(source: http://www.thrivehypnotherapy.com/how-hypnosis-can-help-with-chronic-pain) However one should remember that pain in itself is a survival mechanism...

So if hypnosis can be used in surgery, can it be used in a persons daily life to help manage pain? Absolutely!
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2014, 16:28:20 PM »

... if one could get a subject to "switch off" senses in certain threatening situations
Yes, I like that one. It certainly is the case when it comes to perceiving noise ... we constantly filter out continuous background noises all the time: factory machinery, traffic, SOs. Maybe the bit of brain activity going on to achieve this desensitized state is not all that different from hypnosis.

But then again, maybe there really is no evolutionary reason behind our hypnotizability after all. Maybe it's just a non-lethal side effect in the way our brains work, just like allergies are sometimes non-lethal side effects of our immune systems. Undecided

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Mefiante
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« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2014, 16:40:08 PM »

The question was whether the conscious/subconscious split has any survival benefits.  I have merely indicated a reason why it does indeed appear to have such a benefit, namely the freeing up of cognitive and physiological resources for potentially more immediate and critical tasks.  The further speculation was that the susceptibility to hypnosis is a side effect of that split.  None of the aforesaid in any way was meant to address the usefulness of susceptibility to hypnosis.  One may as well wonder about the usefulness of our susceptibility to sensory illusions as a side effect of our having sensory capacities.

Besides, the split isn’t as black-and-white as a naïve appraisal would suggest at first gloss.  Within limits, we are able to regulate our breathing rate at will, or cease it altogether for a short while, through an act of will.  There are also well-documented cases of people being able to regulate their heart rate through concentration.  It would appear that the more evolutionarily primitive/essential a biological function is, the more difficult it is to subject it to conscious control.  For instance, I know of no cases where people have been able to affect their metabolic rate by exerting conscious focus on it.

Maybe hypnosis works by somehow tuning down self-awareness to a significant degree, thereby altering the normal IO filtering between the higher and lower brain without the higher brain relinquishing much control — but I’m guessing here.

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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2014, 16:48:10 PM »

One may as well wonder about the usefulness of our susceptibility to sensory illusions as a side effect of our having sensory capacities.
Yup, that's true. I was assuming advantages in phenomena where there really need not be any.

It's called the Overzealous Evolutionary Fallacy. Cheesy

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Mefiante
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« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2014, 17:21:48 PM »

It's called the Overzealous Evolutionary Fallacy. Cheesy
LOL!  Still, many instances of the fallacy can be obviated by observing that the benefits of having a particular trait outweigh the disadvantages that may arise from having it.

I guess that would turn them into instances of the Economics-101 Evolutionary Truism. Wink

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Brian
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« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2014, 17:32:28 PM »

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Maybe hypnosis works by somehow tuning down self-awareness to a significant degree, thereby altering the normal IO filtering between the higher and lower brain without the higher brain relinquishing much control
Yep that very much summarises is, BUT the induction of a hypnotic state virtually "switches off" the higher brain (this depends on the susceptibility though of the subject which would explain why some subjects jerk out of the state when confronted by an unknown/intolerant situation), hence the ability to do things you would not normally be able to do...like sing in a man's voice (woman subject).

In the famous and well documented case of the "The Three faces of Eve" Hypnosis was used to explore the multiple personalities of Chris Costner Sizemore (Eve Black, Eve White and Jane).Controversy exists however whether this was induced by hypnosis or treated....the case remains unclear.
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brianvds
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« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2014, 05:10:51 AM »

For instance, I know of no cases where people have been able to affect their metabolic rate by exerting conscious focus on it.

If you could find a way to do it, and to train other people to do it, you'd make a fortune in the slimming industry. :-)
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2014, 09:45:05 AM »

For instance, I know of no cases where people have been able to affect their metabolic rate by exerting conscious focus on it.

If you could find a way to do it, and to train other people to do it, you'd make a fortune in the slimming industry. :-)


Not necessarily. As most yo-yo dieters know, an accelerated metabolism can easily be compensated for by eating faster.  Cool
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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2014, 14:01:39 PM »

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Hypnosis is still used for surgery to this day and a simple search of youtube will show a variety of videos of people undergoing procedures without the use of any anesthesia.
(source: http://www.thrivehypnotherapy.com/how-hypnosis-can-help-with-chronic-pain) However one should remember that pain in itself is a survival mechanism...

So if hypnosis can be used in surgery, can it be used in a persons daily life to help manage pain? Absolutely!




I have been told of an interesting experiment with hypnosis, but can find no confirming literature on the internet.  It goes like this:  the hypnotee is blindfolded.  The hypnotist then traces a small circle somewhere on the hypnotee’s skin, say on the back of the hand.  The instruction is given that the hypnotee must remember where the circle is.  When he is touched outside the circle, he will feel it.  When touched inside the circle, he will feel nothing.  When he feels something, he must say “yes”.  When he feels nothing, he must say “no”.

When touched outside the circle, the hypnotee says “yes”.  Logically, the hypnotee should keep quiet when touched inside the circle, but that does not happen – he says “no” when touched there.  This indicates two things:

I   The hypnotee only pretends to feel nothing to satisfy the hypnotist, but can actually feel.
II  The hypnotee has lost the ability to reason logically.

If this is correct, it would make one reluctant to use hypnosis for dentistry or surgical procedures.
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Brian
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2014, 14:14:34 PM »

Hermes: it is well known that subjects often fake it to satisfy the hypnotist. A professional will normally test for this in some way. If it is used for dentistry and the guy is faking it, the dentist only needs to prod a nerve!  Grin
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Hermes
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« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2014, 15:34:40 PM »

Hermes: it is well known that subjects often fake it to satisfy the hypnotist. A professional will normally test for this in some way. If it is used for dentistry and the guy is faking it, the dentist only needs to prod a nerve!  Grin
But what I have just described is used as a test to establish if the hypnotee is faking it or not.  The person who fakes being hypnotized keeps quiet when touched inside the circle, because that would be the logical thing to do.  He sees the trap and thinks himself clever for figuring that one out.  The one who is truly hypnotized takes the irrational course of saying "no".  He actually believes that he feels nothing because the hypnotist told him so, yet he must feel it, because he responds as instructed.  I know it appears to be counter-intuitive, yet that is what I was led to believe happens in this test.

As I have warned, I have no confirmation of this test.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2014, 16:27:38 PM »

He sees the trap and thinks himself clever for figuring that one out.

I'd argue some people are too stupid to see the trap.
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Hermes
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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2014, 16:44:53 PM »

I'd argue some people are too stupid to see the trap.
True, and others may know about the trap, or the not trap.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2014, 17:13:15 PM »

I'd argue some people are too stupid to see the trap.
In such cases, due to a serious lack of processing power, anaesthesia probably wouldn’t make any difference anyway… Wink

'Luthon64
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Hermes
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« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2014, 17:15:24 PM »

I'd argue some people are too stupid to see the trap.
In such cases, due to a serious lack of processing power, anaesthesia probably wouldn’t make any difference anyway… Wink

'Luthon64

They might not have teeth either.
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