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Another wonder of GPS technology .... or maybe not?

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brianvds
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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 14:03:12 PM »

There was a Libertarian Party (LP) in SA as long as 30 years ago already.  It fell apart in the late 90s (IIRC) owing to too many irrelevant squabbles about what Ayn Rand really meant,


That's always the problem with libertarians.

Quote
and it was succeeded by another flash-in-the-pan party with a strong libertarian bent calling itself the KISS Party (Keep It Straight and Simple).  That one, too, died in short order as a result of a similar failure to herd cats.


And that is another problem with libertarianism in general: they are by definition not herd animals. :-)

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Perhaps you’re thinking of the Ubuntu Party?  If so, you ought to know that its founder, Michael Tellinger, is a total conspiracy- and UFO nut who also buys wholesale into several other irrationalities*.  While that doesn’t mean his heart’s not in the right place, it does leave one to wonder where his head’s at in terms of how he means to realise his cultish and frankly unrealistic visions.


Don't know about this one. Libertarians are often conspiracy nuts. Mistrust government enough, and you will believe any dark tales about the government.

I do not necessarily want a libertarian party to win an election, mind you. But I think we can do with a libertarian voice in government. If they ever look like they are going to win an election, I may well start voting against them. :-)

However, at the moment we are in far more danger of a naive and ultimately rather repressive nanny state, or ending up with the likes of Julius Malema as president.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 14:09:07 PM »

Rigil, Emma is now married to Vaulter von Bankencuckootoblerone.



Brianvds, please don’t get me wrong.  In principle I also identify strongly with libertarian values.  I suspect that most individuals raised in modern secular liberal democracies would do likewise.  The problem is basic human nature where inevitably some individuals will constantly jockey for strategic advantage/status/position at the expense of others, and/or attempt to arrogate laissez-faire for themselves alone, all the while denying it to others.  In such circumstances, minimalist government leaves the door wide open to abuses by Big Business.  On the other hand, too much government usually impedes all growth (other than its own) and also usually results in increasing government abuses.

Unfortunately, nobody’s yet figured out the magic formula.  Maybe there isn’t one because humanity is too volatile in its pursuits.

'Luthon64
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cr1t
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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 14:17:01 PM »

Penn from Penn and Teller, is a big libertarian, I never really took them seriously until I heard him speak about it.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2013, 16:04:43 PM »

Rigil, Emma is now married to Vaulter von Bankencuckootoblerone.

I've often wondered about that chocolate. For instance, is it really made from cow's milk or is it simply an ozonolytic product of Switzerland's vast natural reserves of bistoblerene.

The unusual shape of the boxes can at least be easily explained by considering that any other cardboard format would leave the candy severely sterically hindered.

tobleryl
            \
             C =O
            /
tobleryl


Consequently, Toblerone boxes are often called iupacs.

Rigil
    
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 16:18:48 PM by Rigil Kent » Logged
Mefiante
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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 16:44:45 PM »

Grin

There’s another theory concerning the familiar Toblerone shape.  Every Swiss chocolate vendor allegedly carries a secret stash of Toblerone that’s in the shape of a normal slab and subtly relabelled “Toblerzero”.  (“Tobler” is Swiss mountaintop slang for a sharp poke.)  However, said secret stash is for sale only to people known to be Swiss citizens who have been sworn to silence, as identified by their greenish-brown lederhosen and unintelligible speaking manner.  The Toblerone known to outsiders is a directed Swiss assault on the rest of humanity.  Its aim appears to be to quite simple: spreading cleft palates.

'Luthon64
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brianvds
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 17:05:25 PM »

Brianvds, please don’t get me wrong.  In principle I also identify strongly with libertarian values.  I suspect that most individuals raised in modern secular liberal democracies would do likewise.  The problem is basic human nature where inevitably some individuals will constantly jockey for strategic advantage/status/position at the expense of others, and/or attempt to arrogate laissez-faire for themselves alone, all the while denying it to others.  In such circumstances, minimalist government leaves the door wide open to abuses by Big Business.  On the other hand, too much government usually impedes all growth (other than its own) and also usually results in increasing government abuses.

Yup, what we really need is a leftwing libertarian party, that is, one that is liberal on social issues, but more leftish on economic ones. I have no big issue with government regulating big business, or providing basic services like health and welfare. What I don't want, is government invading everyone's private life, or getting so hung up on the evils of big business that it ends up sabotaging the economy or persecuting mom-and-pop stores for not providing their part time cleaning lady with a salary exceeding the store's turnover, and full health and retirement benefits. That kind of thing does not benefit anyone at all, except the politicians.

The traditional liberal parties are supposed to play this role of liberal but also caring, but alas, someone like Mrs. Zille strikes me as every bit as authoritarian as anyone in the ANC. That is the impression I get when she goes on, for example, about sending the army into areas where there are drug wars (instead of doing the obvious, namely to legalize the drugs). The DA, badly needing to expand its support base, nowadays seems to be the "we-can-out-ANC-the-ANC" party.

This leaves me in a position where I feel like just withholding my vote altogether. If I do vote, it will have to be libertarian or nothing, hence the Dagga Party (which might well also be a bunch of clowns - when it comes to the dagga issue they are far more likely to start yammering about the health benefits of the plant than about issues of basic personal liberty) or the libertarians (and if their leader is a UFO nut, then so be it as long as he can keep his nuttery separate from his prospective administration).

Well, I don't know. I may find it impossible to bring myself to vote for either a UFO nut or a cannabis oil alternative health nut, in which case I'll spend polling day at home, indulging in my hobbies or investigating the possibilities emigrating.
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Tweefo
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2013, 17:26:53 PM »

Withholding your vote is the same as voting for the biggest party. I vote for whoever is the biggest opposition, even if that is (one day) the ANC. Any party with too much say can do what they want, so my aim is to limit the damage.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2013, 18:17:14 PM »

Brianvds, please don’t get me wrong.  In principle I also identify strongly with libertarian values.

Heh, as do I. However I didn't know we had a libertarian party, much less that it was run by a nutter. Sad that.

It fell apart in the late 90s (IIRC) owing to too many irrelevant squabbles about what Ayn Rand really meant

This kind of personality cult gets my goat. I think Rand was right about some stuff, but that doesn't mean everything she said needs to be followed to the letter (and the fact that people argue about it points to bible-like problems). The mere thought makes me shudder. SHUDDER I say! For much the same reason I lamented to start this tangent: Just because extreme A is bad it doesn't mean we have to all instantly swing to extreme B. There are probably dragons over at extreme B too.

The irony is Rand disliked central authority and has become an authority like that herself. Note: I don't mean to sound like a Rand fanboy, because I'm not (for reasons stated in another thread some time ago).
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cr1t
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cr1t
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2013, 08:25:33 AM »

Maybe we should start our own party, the Rational party.

The trick to politics is getting money from the rich, and votes from the poor,
and promising both to protect them from each other.
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Hermes
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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2013, 10:02:04 AM »

Maybe we should start our own party, the Rational party.

The trick to politics is getting money from the rich, and votes from the poor,
and promising both to protect them from each other
.
No, that sounds like rapartheid.  Call it the African Rational Congress.
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cr1t
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cr1t
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2013, 10:24:43 AM »

Maybe we should start our own party, the Rational party.

The trick to politics is getting money from the rich, and votes from the poor,
and promising both to protect them from each other.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2013, 11:39:17 AM »

I'd call it the Rational Liberation Movement.

See what I did there? Tongue
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st0nes
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mark.widdicombe1
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« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2013, 14:14:09 PM »

Penn from Penn and Teller, is a big libertarian, I never really took them seriously until I heard him speak about it.
What does Teller say?
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Mefiante
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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2013, 15:43:51 PM »

What does Teller say?
In this case, it likely won’t be “Bullshit!”.

'Luthon64
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brianvds
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« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2013, 17:14:47 PM »



It is especially their stance against prohibitions of all sorts that I am in strong sympathy with. I always have this feeling that the line between a nanny state and a police state is a thin and blurry one.
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