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are we breeding ourselves into extinction

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Faerie
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« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2011, 13:32:15 PM »

I can weave (from scratch). I can also scavenge a veld for edible roots and goodies, marogh grows freely all over in the wild, I also know how to create a ground oven and taught my kids how to do it too. I'm good (not an expert, but good) at recognising wild herbs. I'm not useless when it comes to hunting/trapping (dont like it but will kill for food if need be) and can skin a buck and know how to cure the skin.  I've built a reed house and know the type of mud (clay) you need to pack it with nicely, and with a bit of maintenance, it can last for seasons. Most of us know that camomile soothe itchy bites and burns, and that Mary-Jane will chill you out, go think about what you know about basic medicines, I think you'd be surprised how much you know.

I'm just a chick from Jo'burg that has an interest in all the "old" ways of doing things. Now imagine what a born and bred farm child will be able to tell you.

 We forget what we dont use.  Once you're in a spot, you'll figure it out.  As for engines and mechanics, most people have some knowledge, throw that together and you'll have yourself sorted with all sorts of cool gadgets very quickly. Some very basic physics knowledge will sort out ovens and air flows and stuff too.
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GCG
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« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2011, 13:36:10 PM »

Faerie, that is super cool.  I wish I knew as much.

It's nice that everyone is so optimistic about the human race's chances at survival.  I am, obviously, a bit more skeptical.

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Globally, the overwhelming majority of people in any case do not have access to the amenities we take for granted, and they’re not going away any time soon.

i did specifically say western(ized) world.

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Faerie
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« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2011, 13:38:01 PM »

and trade will take a good few years to establish.  we can barely keep a protest march civil, how quickly will humanity dissolve into chaos.  law enforcement will have little effect.  if you are hungry, a cop can shove his bullets up his ass.  and bullets run out.  and diesel for caspirs run out.  and there is no money to pay soldiers.  they will piss off at the first mention of no pay.  paper money will be useless.
yes, humans are adapable and will figure it out.  but stable, logical, practical humans are mightily outnumbered by people who are just plain stupid, or have no skills to bring to the party.  i think the percentage of western humans that have a practical skill, like making bricks, making a healing poultice, is minute.  


If the world gets flattened in the manner that you envisage, then most of the population will be gone too.  There will be no masses, nor will law enforcement be needed in that scenario.  If some dude gives you lip about god being his saviour because he survived the initial drama, you'll bop him on the head with a rock and there will be nobody around to chuck you in the chookie - its all good!  Wink

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Faerie
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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2011, 13:44:45 PM »

Faerie, that is super cool.  I wish I knew as much.


Go read... and google will give you step by step info on just about anything you want to create, build, or cook from scratch. 

Actually, this is a good idea for that winter's thread, little projects to do.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2011, 13:46:39 PM »

i did specifically say western(ized) world.
Indeed you did, but several westernised societies have only limited or even no access to the benefits of modern living.
 
You also started this thread and gave it its title.

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2011, 13:52:24 PM »

ok. in your circle of friends.  who can weave?

I did say knit OR weave. I know tons of people who can knit, why pick on the harder thing to do? By the way, I completely understand what weaving is, and I've "woven" with grass etc before, just never a garment of fabric. But heck it's not THAT hard, If I need basic clothing I'm not going to try and weave fine silk anyway, rough weave would do, so would knitting.

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who knows how to dig proper irrigation?

Gravity + shovel, I mean if it takes humanity more than a couple of days to figure it out, we're fucked anyway.

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who knows how to build a furnace?

I did say I saw a guy build one, with explanation...

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who knows where to dig up the right soil that contains the right amount of iron to smelt?

So all major cities, cars, railways, telephone lines, tables, chairs, earrings, have been vaporised?

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do you know how to milk a cow boogie?

I'm pretty sure you don't tickle it's ears and make "boooo" sounds....

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 would you know what to do when your cow has mastitis?

No but at least 5 people in my family do.

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does he know where the raw materials come from?  no.  he just does what the baas tells him to do.

I've never set foot in a brick factory but the basics I know. Take clay (afaik almost any clay goes), form into brick, make really hot for long time, cool, serve.

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mister baas of the brick making factory just knows how to stick everything together.

I doubt it, mister baas wouldn't get 2 cm past the SABS if he didn't have any clue what he was doing, where his materials came from, what their quality was (and hence what their properties were), etc.

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who knows how to make cement from scratch?  it took people ages to get the recipe right.

Sure, but now we know the recipe. My brother has lectured me all about the chemical composition of cement, he's in the building industry, and they know this stuff, promise.

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how long will take you to build it?  do you know how to stack the stones just right so it doesnt collapse on you when the first rain comes.

Hey I'd have the rest of my life to experiment and still that'd only be a fraction of a fraction of human history. And I'm pretty sure I could wax it in under a year, easy.

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they cant help you when joburg gets flattened by whatever.  they are lank far away.

You've never met someone in joburg who came from a rural area?

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 do you know where to find a painkiller in nature?  do you know which willow's bark will help you, and which will give you the runs?  do you personally know anybody that does?

But you a pharmacist does, and I know a couple of those... I'll ask when I'm next around.

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wont be handing out their knowledge like candy, they will hang on to it, and you wil kak to get even medicines, tools, cloth...  

Nobody knows everything, they'll have to barter to survive.

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where i can get seeds

Any piece of corn, tomato, etc. you find (I have to exclude certain GM crops here, on that you may actually have had a point) will do.

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fertilizer

Tip: It's not on your knee, and it's not on your chin, but it can be found somewhere in between.

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where does one find cotton seeds?

Down in Louisiana, just about a mile from Texarkana.

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find a sheep, shear it.  cool.  where do you buy your shears again?  who makes shears?  the blacksmith.  do you know a blacksmith?  how many smithies are there in johannesburg?

You can skin/shear a sheep with a rock you sharpened by beating another rock. BUT do yourself a favour and do a youtube search for "homemade furnace" and be amazed. Some kids do it these days for laughs, some adults who want to make basic stuff, etc.  And yes I've seen people who blacksmith for fun, youtube search that. My point is not "you could always youtube", my point is just LOOK at all the people doing it!

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you are trying to make it sound like it will be business as usual

Oh hell no, it'll be hard going at first, but what I'm saying is, getting the basics right won't take centuries, or maybe even decades. Things would recover pretty quick imho. I don't claim we'll be churning out the benzez, but locomotives, then maybe cars... I realise you need certain tooling. But it's much easier if you already knew what was possible and how. And like I said, talking, writing, reading, we could disseminate information quickly.
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Brian
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« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2011, 14:04:19 PM »

there's an Afr saying "Nood leer" I think it went and it surely does. I built a house from rock without plans and we still live in it; manufactured two massive doors from sleeper wood without ever having done so in my life and many other things on the farm.

But GCG has a point: if ALL amenities were to disappear, the 'strong' who know and can, will exploit the 'weak' who don't know and or can't...no different to today. No pharmacies will exist anywhere or packlaged medicines etc and the knowledge they had as well as the factories, vehicles, fuel etc are gone (and no Google), Faerie's knowledge would make her a pretty Grin valuable resource....however if you're on a remote mountain plateau and no way to get down or a desert island with very little of anything, you'll be forced to survive a la Robinson Crusoe.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2011, 14:15:42 PM »

however if you're on a remote mountain plateau and no way to get down or a desert island with very little of anything, you'll be forced to survive a la Robinson Crusoe.

So for you it'd be business as usual.
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Faerie
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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2011, 14:19:30 PM »

Faerie's knowledge would make her a pretty Grin valuable resource....

MY knowledge is basic, and its stuff all of you know already, its just not being used therefore not on your mind.  Hell, if you read ANY historical FICTION you would have some knowledge on "stuff".  All of us know you use the intestine to make wors with, we ALL know that to cure a skin you need to scrape it, we all know that you yank on a cow's udders to get milk... - who told you eh? the devil's in the detail, but that anyone trying can figure out anyway.  Whether a green is poisonous?  Hey, lets take a wee bit and put it on the tongue... does it burn, is it bitter - yes, spit it out, no, swallow and wait to see if you get the runs, no? try a bigger piece, still ok? Well then its likely safe to eat. Does the birds and animals eat it? Probably ok then.  Damn, its not as much fun as picking it off prepackaged from a shelf, and you cant sue someone if it makes you sick, but you'll be able to eat!
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st0nes
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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2011, 14:26:53 PM »

Maybe we should print out the internet and bury it somewhere where we can find it when everything else has been flattened.
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Brian
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2011, 14:45:18 PM »

however if you're on a remote mountain plateau and no way to get down or a desert island with very little of anything, you'll be forced to survive a la Robinson Crusoe.

So for you it'd be business as usual.
quite so  Cheesy

Maybe we should print out the internet and bury it somewhere where we can find it when everything else has been flattened.

heheh...but here's a thought. IF everything is destroyed and the survivors want to leave some knowledge behind for their descendants to use and develop a new world and you're allowed only one 'paper' (made of hemp by the way!), what would you write (with ink made from beetlejuice and soot Grin)?
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st0nes
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2011, 15:16:05 PM »

heheh...but here's a thought. IF everything is destroyed and the survivors want to leave some knowledge behind for their descendants to use and develop a new world and you're allowed only one 'paper' (made of hemp by the way!), what would you write (with ink made from beetlejuice and soot Grin)?
I'd draw a map to the place where I buried the internet.
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Hermes
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« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2011, 12:14:54 PM »

GCG has a valid point in that modern humankind with its technological advances would be quite out of its depth in a stone age situation.  The debate here has little meaning unless it is clearly defined what is involved in the starter pack.  A sample of, say a few hundred humans, dumped into a wilderness situation with no tools, no transport, and no knowledge of the local geology, would indeed have a very severe survival battle and may well become extinct, depending largely on the availability of food and water.  Would anybody in the group have the ability to make a fire by rubbing a stick; to manufacture a wheel without tools?  In a scenario like this all knowledge of modern technology would probably be lost and have to be reinvented over millennia.

A situation where all cities have been destroyed by earthquakes would be entirely different.  The population would not suddenly be devoid of all tools, resources, transport etc. and should be able to recover to modern day standards within a few generations.
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