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Brainwash

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Tweefo
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« on: March 29, 2012, 19:57:19 PM »

I travel around the country presenting astronomy shows in a mobile planetarium. One of the schools we contacted send us this reply.
Quote
I hope this e-mail finds you well.

Thank you for the information you’ve send us, but unfortunately we have to decline.
Our council has decided that they cannot allow a visit from your company anymore.

We are an ACE (Acceleration Christian Educatoin) school and our principals are strictly according to the Bible. We cannot have someone talking to our children about “dinosaurs”, “million years ago” or hint about the “big bang”, as it happened in the past few years. It goes against all we believe in and stand for and we cannot allow that. After every visit, our staff have to do ‘damage control’.
Please excuse me for being direct and to the point, but we cannot sugar coat our reason.

We wish you all the best for the future
How do I answer it? I do not have to answer but I want to.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2012, 20:23:15 PM »

Whoever wrote that e-mail seems to be a product of the same ACE he or she is defending.  The e-mail is frighteningly fraught with errors of spelling, vocabulary and grammar.

I think the gist of your reply should focus on the idea that the biggest educational favour we can do our children is to expose them to as many different ideas as possible, focussing on their strengths and their weaknesses, so that they are better equipped to decide for themselves.  To shield them completely from different ideas is doing their education (and thus their futures) a disservice because their critical abilities are diminished if they do not contemplate different ideas, especially widely-accepted mainstream ones.  By depriving the kids of challenges to their beliefs, the school’s primary tenet seems to be that dogmatism is more valuable than analytical skill.

(For what it’s worth, I think it’s already too late for those poor kids.  If their parents were halfway sane, they’d never send their kids to such a school in the first place.)

'Luthon64
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brianvds
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2012, 06:19:08 AM »

Somewhat related perhaps:

http://www.beeld.com/MyBeeld/Briewe/Erco-probleem-hou-kind-terug-20120329

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Faerie
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2012, 07:30:36 AM »

"Damage Control" Good grief, its sad when an adult are resistant to the curiosity of children and adverse to answering questions honestly and factually.

Those poor kids....
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Brian
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2012, 08:01:40 AM »

Maybe a silly question: Is there no avenue one can take to object to this form of brainwashing and possibly even child abuse through denial of the child's fundamental rights. SA is a secular state and IMO withholding a balanced and equitable education and access to  information from a child seems to fly in the face of sec 28.2 of the Constitution: " A child's best interests are of paramount importance in every matter concerning the child" and even 15.1 "Everyone has the right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief and opinion." and as Mefiante says the spelling errors and poor language is proof of a sub-standard level of education that requires closer scrutiny.
"Damage Control" in whose opinion? and at whose cost? The children's no doubt.
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2012, 16:56:00 PM »

Wow this is very sad indeed. "sugar coat our reason"Huh?!! There is no reason there to coat in anything!  I agree with Brian - it surely does or surely should contravene the educational constitution and the learners human rights.

They incidentally contradict their own ethos.. http://www.aceministries.com/aboutus/?content=main

" From its beginning, Accelerated Christian Education® has maintained high Biblical and academic standards and remained committed to setting children on a path for success. The goal is the same today: to prepare children for the world today and give them the academic and spiritual tools necessary to achieve their God-given potential"

It interestingly also says "His learning must be controlled"
Scary.

Did you reply to them yet?
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brianvds
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2012, 18:22:05 PM »

Maybe a silly question: Is there no avenue one can take to object to this form of brainwashing and possibly even child abuse through denial of the child's fundamental rights. SA is a secular state and IMO withholding a balanced and equitable education and access to  information from a child seems to fly in the face of sec 28.2 of the Constitution: " A child's best interests are of paramount importance in every matter concerning the child" and even 15.1 "Everyone has the right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief and opinion." and as Mefiante says the spelling errors and poor language is proof of a sub-standard level of education that requires closer scrutiny.
"Damage Control" in whose opinion? and at whose cost? The children's no doubt.

Well, I guess you could raise a stink about it until child welfare intervenes and removes the children from their parents, which will traumatize and harm them rather more than their current religiously based education is likely to do. (I wonder when the do-gooders are going to start agitating for having Amish kids removed from their parents...) From what I have seen of fundie kids, they are on the whole no less happy or successful than anyone else. You do not need to understand or accept evolution in order to function in society.

So my advice is, leave them in peace to educate their children as they see fit. But then, I am a bit of an anarchist.

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beLIEf
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2012, 19:55:08 PM »


[/quote]
 I am a bit of an anarchist.
[/quote]

I'm a lot of one and yes live and let live and all that but not when it infringes on rights. Which gives rise to the real question- which is the more important human right? - freedom of religion or the right to a decent education?

[/quote]

Well, I guess you could raise a stink about it until child welfare intervenes and removes the children from their parents, which will traumatize and harm them rather more than their current religiously based education is likely to do. (I wonder when the do-gooders are going to start agitating for having Amish kids removed from their parents...) From what I have seen of fundie kids, they are on the whole no less happy or successful than anyone else. You do not need to understand or accept evolution in order to function in society.

[/quote]
Religious people are in fact probably more happy ... after all isn't ignorance bliss?? If reality (subjective of course)  makes us less happy then we are on the verge of going the US route - see the thread on this forum somewhere...

No one is recommending these children are removed from their homes in any capacity which would of course be chaos and where would that ideology end?? There would be more children in care than in families!!

It is about the restriction that is being imposed.


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Brian
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2012, 07:07:10 AM »

By denying the children access to "balanced" information and education, you are manipulating their lives (as all education does anyway) but in this instance the bounds of what is reasonable and acceptable seem to be flouted. No-one is suggesting removing them but rather proposing that the system be changed to liberalise education...I realise this is idealistic in this instance but even quite conservative Muslim schools encourage the development of enquiring minds, study of the universe, etc.
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2012, 07:18:44 AM »


Religious people are in fact probably more happy ... after all isn't ignorance bliss??

As an offside, I dont think so. I cant offer statistics (although THAT would be interesting to scrutinize), but in my experience in coaching/counselling and mentoring people in the workplace, the religious folk have far more trouble and issues than the agnostic/atheist ones. They're also the lot that generally throw their hands up in the air and "leave it to god, he knows best" instead of attempting to solve the problem. They then live for the next five years or more pondering on the pain in their lives instead of doing something practical to solve it.
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Superman
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2012, 08:04:17 AM »

They're also the lot that generally throw their hands up in the air and "leave it to god, he knows best" instead of attempting to solve the problem. They then live for the next five years or more pondering on the pain in their lives instead of doing something practical to solve it.
I concur and if they do something it only involves praying (more like crying) about it on their knees. Much help that will do them.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2012, 08:29:47 AM »

… in my experience in coaching/counselling and mentoring people in the workplace, the religious folk have far more trouble and issues than the agnostic/atheist ones. They're also the lot that generally throw their hands up in the air and "leave it to god, he knows best" instead of attempting to solve the problem. They then live for the next five years or more pondering on the pain in their lives instead of doing something practical to solve it.
I think what you’re probably seeing is a symptom of religiosity, namely (1) that there are far more religious people than irreligious ones, and (2) that religious people are much more willing to seek help and advice on personal matters from external sources than their irreligious counterparts.  Atheists and the irreligious are fewer in number and their beliefs are unpopular, if not downright frowned upon.  In turn, this societal disdain has the effect of putting them more on the outskirts of society, making them more self-sufficient so that they are less likely to seek external help on personal matters.  So it’s not that they have fewer problems, it’s that they tend be more private about them and to handle them by themselves more.

In any case, it is “common wisdom” among psychologists that “religious people are on the whole happier than the non-religious,” based on several experiments that yielded such results.  I once asked an experimental psychologist to explain how to construct a tool that objectively measures happiness.  Inasmuch as I understood the inflated jargon, the gist of the answer boils down to “self-assessment with control questions.”  This left me entirely unconvinced that such tests actually measure what they are claimed to measure.  Self-assessment is notoriously unreliable, even with controls because the controls are themselves subjective.  The assessment tool just makes the unwarranted an unbased assumption that the controls are the same for all test subjects.  It makes no room, in this instance for example, that the religious and irreligious have a different understanding of what “happiness” means, and so the tests measured different things for the two groups.  More broadly, the answer also did next to nothing to relieve my strong suspicion that much of psychology is pseudoscience:  There’s a theory/hypothesis/schema that fits every conceivable situation of perceived psychological disorder.

'Luthon64
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Mefiante
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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2012, 08:47:34 AM »

Oh, and an afterthought:  Even if we accept that religious people are happier than atheists and the irreligious, we should not make the mistake of inferring that they are happier because they are religious.  Correlation is not causation, as is often repeated.  For all we know, happiness and religiosity could both be predicated on a particular, more basic frame of mind, for example one that avoids questioning too deeply.

'Luthon64
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Faerie
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« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2012, 08:58:25 AM »

@ Mefiante: gods, I wish I had your skill with words...

Do you speak in the same manner as you write?
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brianvds
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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2012, 10:26:10 AM »

I'm a lot of one and yes live and let live and all that but not when it infringes on rights. Which gives rise to the real question- which is the more important human right? - freedom of religion or the right to a decent education?

What exactly is a "decent education"? The stuff they teach at government schools (which turn out record numbers of illiterate and innumerate matriculants)?

Quote
Religious people are in fact probably more happy ... after all isn't ignorance bliss?? If reality (subjective of course)  makes us less happy then we are on the verge of going the US route - see the thread on this forum somewhere...
No one is recommending these children are removed from their homes in any capacity which would of course be chaos and where would that ideology end?? There would be more children in care than in families!!
It is about the restriction that is being imposed.

And what if the fundies flatly refuse to expose their kids to evolution? We'll soon be in a position where we would have no choice but to threaten to remove their children. It is all unnecessary: I am not aware of any clear evidence that the home schooled fundie children in fact end up more ignorant or uneducated or unskilled than the vast bulk of children "educated" in state schools.

As it happens, I live in an area with lots, and I mean LOTS, of Jehovah Witnesses. I go for a long walk in the morning, and they are nowadays absolutely everywhere, standing around on street corner and trying to hand out pamphlets. Very often their children are with them. They drive shiny cars, they are well dressed, impeccably polite, and the children are obviously well looked after. I cannot imagine any reason why we need to interfere with this: they are happy and are clearly doing well economically. I am therefore perfectly happy to leave them in peace to live as they choose.

Short of cases of gross physical, sexual or emotional abuse, nothing will harm a child more than being removed from his parents, so that route is out, and I don't see how else we can force them to give their kids a science education, nor do I see why it is necessary. The vast bulk of the population doesn't know dick about science, and it doesn't prevent them from living happy and productive lives.

Of course, I think they are missing out on all manner of wonders, but it's not my job to ram said wonders down their throats, I think. Otherwise I may as well follow their example and spend Sunday morning thumping Dawkins instead of reading it, and raving about the end of the world as we know it.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2012, 10:45:36 AM »

@ Mefiante: gods, I wish I had your skill with words...
Merci most kindly. Wink



Do you speak in the same manner as you write?
It depends.  When writing, I try to keep my meaning precise while preserving clarity so as to avoid ambiguity and misunderstanding.  There are circumstances, e.g. formally presenting technical feedback to clients, or discussions on technical matters, where similar care is needed where I consciously choose my words and sentences carefully.  In normal day-to-day circumstances, my verbal exchanges are considerably less formal.  As a matter of fact, I occasionally throw in a strategic fucking swearword… Shocked

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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2012, 10:49:39 AM »

I really hate religion like nobody I know. And I really think kids should learn about evolution and science but threatening to remove someone's children is a bad idea period. It reminds me of myself and some crazy ideas I got in my own head about environment & sexuality the other day.
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brianvds
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« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2012, 11:12:49 AM »

...environment & sexuality ...

Oh, screw the environment...  Grin
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Brian
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2012, 11:22:52 AM »

Mefiante's point about 'happiness' is critical as it is in itself a human construct and IMHO very subjective. Oprah aired a show some time ago (yes I actually watched some of her shit WTF!!)that stated that Danes (in Denmark) are the happiest nation on earth and at the same the least religious. This would fly in the face of what beLIEF said. In all these so-called sociological studies one needs to subject the scientific rigor of the research to the n-th degree. My take (a subjective interpretation and adaptation of Objectivism) on 'happiness' is the following (from "Moses was a Liar") where the heroine lambasts a Jesuit priest:

 "What do you know priest, about happiness? Your church as well as others have spread misery throughout the world and you grow from strength to strength on the corpses of those you have destroyed and persecuted in the name of love. The ‘happiness’ you and those before you preached was conditional; conditional upon the sacrifice of your mind, upon the sacrifice of your individuality and the sacrifice of your self-esteem. True happiness can only come from within; it is not something a deity can give or bestow upon man; happiness is a condition brought about by the achievement of one’s goals; happiness comes about through activities which seek to find a balance between reason, ambition and virtue. Happiness can never come at the expense of another person; happiness is not the equivalent of an absence of fear or evil or even of unhappiness. Happiness comes about when man succeeds in achieving his or her personal goals, goals which they believe will make them happy, in achieving recognition for this from those they respect and love, and from the rewards of such achievement. It is not a gift bestowed upon a person such as one bestows upon a child. It does not come from material goods, wealth or power unless such reward was justified by the creation of value and virtue. That is not the happiness I am referring to. I pity you priest; your happiness will only come about when you convert me or destroy me in the attempt to do so; you will consequently die an unhappy, unfulfilled man."
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Mefiante
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 11:31:14 AM »

I love that excerpt, Brian.  Brilliant stuff.

'Luthon64
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Brian
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« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2012, 13:22:09 PM »

Appreciation from you is reward indeed Mefiante...Thanx  Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2012, 17:30:25 PM »

It almost sounds like something Rand could've penned. You seem to have a similar style.
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Brian
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2012, 19:33:32 PM »

I've read every Rand book and also her published letters so it should be no surprise that her style and indeed much of her philosophy has rubbed off on me. However, there are major differences: her linguistic skill and absolute discipline with thoughts far surpasses mine; also I don't agree with all her philosophies such as her stand about the right of a democracy such as the US to invade countries with different (not necessarily hostile) beliefs or non-democratic governments or her stand on environmentalism etc. But then times have changed. But thanks anyway BM, I take your comment as a compliment.
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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2012, 22:27:45 PM »

It is, and I agree. I like Rand but saying it out loud is prone to getting critisism for things I also don't agree with.
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« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2012, 09:03:00 AM »

Quote
What exactly is a "decent education"? The stuff they teach at government schools (which turn out record numbers of illiterate and innumerate matriculants)?

The SA education is a long way from perfect or decent if we look at the Eastern Cape. I fail to see how you can get to Gr12 and be illiterate. The system requires that you repeat your grade until you pass or pass with support. So what exactly do you mean by "illiterate?" And I would be interested to see your source of "record numbers". There could be record numbers of learners failing, which is still amazing considering the 30% pass rate, but I think illiterate and innumerate is inaccurate.

What I meant by "decent" was at least the OPPORTUNITY to be exposed to different world views. So yes that may also mean the other things people on this forum would not necessarily agree with, but in terms of holistic learning and having the freedom to make up your own mind as a growing adult; I will stand by that being "decent". 

Quote
And what if the fundies flatly refuse to expose their kids to evolution? We'll soon be in a position where we would have no choice but to threaten to remove their children. It is all unnecessary: I am not aware of any clear evidence that the home schooled fundie children in fact end up more ignorant or uneducated or unskilled than the vast bulk of children "educated" in state schools.

Who's "we"? We as in the people on here discussing it are not in a position to do anything about it! And as far as I can see the government certainly wouldn't be in that position due to the constitution - Freedom of religion.

I agree with freedom of religion entirely, but also the freedom to explore, question and make up your own mind not be brainwashed.
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« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2012, 09:08:35 AM »

Mefiante's point about 'happiness' is critical as it is in itself a human construct and IMHO very subjective. Oprah aired a show some time ago (yes I actually watched some of her shit WTF!!)that stated that Danes (in Denmark) are the happiest nation on earth and at the same the least religious. This would fly in the face of what beLIEF said. In all these so-called sociological studies one needs to subject the scientific rigor of the research to the n-th degree. My take (a subjective interpretation and adaptation of Objectivism) on 'happiness' is the following (from "Moses was a Liar") where the heroine lambasts a Jesuit priest:

 "What do you know priest, about happiness? Your church as well as others have spread misery throughout the world and you grow from strength to strength on the corpses of those you have destroyed and persecuted in the name of love. The ‘happiness’ you and those before you preached was conditional; conditional upon the sacrifice of your mind, upon the sacrifice of your individuality and the sacrifice of your self-esteem. True happiness can only come from within; it is not something a deity can give or bestow upon man; happiness is a condition brought about by the achievement of one’s goals; happiness comes about through activities which seek to find a balance between reason, ambition and virtue. Happiness can never come at the expense of another person; happiness is not the equivalent of an absence of fear or evil or even of unhappiness. Happiness comes about when man succeeds in achieving his or her personal goals, goals which they believe will make them happy, in achieving recognition for this from those they respect and love, and from the rewards of such achievement. It is not a gift bestowed upon a person such as one bestows upon a child. It does not come from material goods, wealth or power unless such reward was justified by the creation of value and virtue. That is not the happiness I am referring to. I pity you priest; your happiness will only come about when you convert me or destroy me in the attempt to do so; you will consequently die an unhappy, unfulfilled man."


I very much like your quote there Smiley

I was making a vast generalisation in that "in theory" Ignorance is bliss and that relinquishing power and decision making to a higher being admonishes many people of the stress of taking personal responsibility for their lives. I see my colleagues in work regularly doing this. Ironically it fills me with happiness as I find it HILARIOUS! The same thing will happen when we go back after the school holidays.... "Don't worry God is in control today" Really - well why was he on holiday the last 2 weeks as well??

Anyway - I digress.. I have to say as a comparison I am significantly happier than all the religious people I know- and that is because I take personal responsibility. So I guess it's a paradox and of course entirely subjective.
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« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2012, 10:12:11 AM »

The SA education is a long way from perfect or decent if we look at the Eastern Cape. I fail to see how you can get to Gr12 and be illiterate. The system requires that you repeat your grade until you pass or pass with support.

Nope. That rule is countermanded by another that says a pupil may not be failed more than once in a phase. After that, he has to be promoted to the next grade, whether he passed the previous grade or not. It is therefore perfectly possible for a pupil to reach matric while being functionally illiterate. And seeing as you only need 30% in some subjects, and 40% in some others, to pass matric, and seeing as pupils who get 5% or so less than that are routinely passed anyway, it is perfectly possible to pass matric without having any meaningful understanding of any of your school work.

Quote
So what exactly do you mean by "illiterate?" And I would be interested to see your source of "record numbers". There could be record numbers of learners failing, which is still amazing considering the 30% pass rate, but I think illiterate and innumerate is inaccurate.

I mean functionally illiterate and innumerate. Yes, many of these kids can read. Give them a newspaper article to read, and they can read it. Ask them questions about the contents of the article, half of which they have to answer verbally and the other half in writing, and you will soon see what I mean. Then ask them to do some simple calculations like 32.3 x 54.2, or 53463/23, or 1/2 + 1/4 without a calculator, and you'll see that they have not mastered elementary math either. Let them do those calculations WITH a calculator, and they still get half of them wrong, or they don't know how to even start because they don't know how to turn a fraction into a decimal with a calculator.

I am not just idly speculating here: I have spent the past year or two teaching and tutoring at various schools. I have seen it with my own eyes. Public education in South Africa is a disaster area, and the home schooled kids of fundies are almost certainly better off.

Mind you, it does depend on the school in question. The semi-private "model C" schools are probably among the best on the planet. What's more, the problem does not primarily lie with the schools, but with parents, so there is actually preciously little the government CAN do about it, even if it were willing.

Quote
What I meant by "decent" was at least the OPPORTUNITY to be exposed to different world views. So yes that may also mean the other things people on this forum would not necessarily agree with, but in terms of holistic learning and having the freedom to make up your own mind as a growing adult; I will stand by that being "decent".

You don't need to be exposed to different world views to be happy, or to make a success. And in any event, the best way to make sure people get exposed to different world views is to teach them to read (in such a way that they actually understand what they read). If the fundie private education can achieve that, then we needn't worry too much about them abusing their kids. 

Quote
Who's "we"? We as in the people on here discussing it are not in a position to do anything about it! And as far as I can see the government certainly wouldn't be in that position due to the constitution - Freedom of religion.
I agree with freedom of religion entirely, but also the freedom to explore, question and make up your own mind not be brainwashed.

In which case I am not sure where that leaves us. You seem to agree that there is nothing to be done about fundies educating their kids privately. If there is nothing we can do, there is no point lamenting it.

Personally I am not too worried about the fundie kids. Trust me, they are vastly better off than some of the completely irreligious kids I worked with last year in Pretoria's inner city... :-)
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« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2012, 18:52:53 PM »

I really can't be arsed to go in circles I have to much to do but...

Quote
What I meant by "decent" was at least the OPPORTUNITY to be exposed to different world views. So yes that may also mean the other things people on this forum would not necessarily agree with, but in terms of holistic learning and having the freedom to make up your own mind as a growing adult; I will stand by that being "decent".

You don't need to be exposed to different world views to be happy, or to make a success. And in any event, the best way to make sure people get exposed to different world views is to teach them to read (in such a way that they actually understand what they read). If the fundie private education can achieve that, then we needn't worry too much about them abusing their kids.

It wasn't about being happy it was what IN MY VIEW constituted a decent education and one I would want for my kids.

Model C's are definitely not some of the best on the planet - I've been teaching 7 years in 3 different countries and totally disagree but anyway we've gone a little off the point.
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2012, 20:20:22 PM »

Model C's are definitely not some of the best on the planet - I've been teaching 7 years in 3 different countries and totally disagree.

This could also be, but they are among the best in South Africa, which explains why there is such pressure on them to go double-medium (after which they usually rapidly get as bad as any other school). The average state school is of course ten times worse. I can understand why people would be reluctant to put their children in such schools, and I think they should have the option not to.

Perhaps the point is moot: they do in fact have that option.

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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2012, 08:29:31 AM »

there is such pressure on them to go double-medium

There is a particular school in Randburg that I would gladly wish would go double-medium just out of spite because of their bigotry I experienced from them when I was young. I grind my teeth but I have to remember that I cannot allow myself to become like them. Bending a persons arm does not change them but creates more hate. When we ensure a person has freedom there is room to change. It so hard though. It is good that they have a choice. I really enjoyed your posts brianvds
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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2012, 07:53:48 AM »

So what exactly do you mean by "illiterate?" And I would be interested to see your source of "record numbers". There could be record numbers of learners failing, which is still amazing considering the 30% pass rate, but I think illiterate and innumerate is inaccurate.

I mean functionally illiterate and innumerate. Yes, many of these kids can read. Give them a newspaper article to read, and they can read it. Ask them questions about the contents of the article, half of which they have to answer verbally and the other half in writing, and you will soon see what I mean. Then ask them to do some simple calculations like 32.3 x 54.2, or 53463/23, or 1/2 + 1/4 without a calculator, and you'll see that they have not mastered elementary math either. Let them do those calculations WITH a calculator, and they still get half of them wrong, or they don't know how to even start because they don't know how to turn a fraction into a decimal with a calculator.

I've experienced this personally, we take in leaners straight from matric every year, and I insist on a hand written essay before I even bother to meet them for an interview. The spelling is horrific in most cases, and many of them tend to write with a mixture of script and caps and of-course many of them write in abbreviations. Its scary. It doesnt end there though, I've had kids texting their buddies during the interview, kids that flop onto their backends and greet you with a "howzit" and dont get up when you greet them. Its not just the book knowledge going to the dogs, but the general upbringing and lack of social skills and manners are really a concern. And please note, these are the kids from the model C schools I'm referring too. Most the kids I do select for my branch of the program comes from rural areas, they tend to have better manners and a willingness (no, make that an eagerness) to learn.

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2012, 10:19:47 AM »

I suspect it's due to all this coddling that's taken place due to OBE. These kids all think they're frikin' geniuses because they've all been told they're special and can do no wrong for their entire schooling career. It sickens me.
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« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2012, 13:52:43 PM »


I mean functionally illiterate and innumerate. Yes, many of these kids can read. Give them a newspaper article to read, and they can read it. Ask them questions about the contents of the article, half of which they have to answer verbally and the other half in writing, and you will soon see what I mean. Then ask them to do some simple calculations like 32.3 x 54.2, or 53463/23, or 1/2 + 1/4 without a calculator, and you'll see that they have not mastered elementary math either. Let them do those calculations WITH a calculator, and they still get half of them wrong, or they don't know how to even start because they don't know how to turn a fraction into a decimal with a calculator.

I've experienced this personally, we take in leaners straight from matric every year, and I insist on a hand written essay before I even bother to meet them for an interview. The spelling is horrific in most cases, and many of them tend to write with a mixture of script and caps and of-course many of them write in abbreviations. Its scary. It doesnt end there though, I've had kids texting their buddies during the interview, kids that flop onto their backends and greet you with a "howzit" and dont get up when you greet them. Its not just the book knowledge going to the dogs, but the general upbringing and lack of social skills and manners are really a concern. And please note, these are the kids from the model C schools I'm referring too. Most the kids I do select for my branch of the program comes from rural areas, they tend to have better manners and a willingness (no, make that an eagerness) to learn.


[/quote]
I've posted this quote on this forum before, but here it is again.
Quote
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." 
Socrates
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Brian
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« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2012, 14:55:09 PM »

Quote
we take in leaners straight from matric every year

Indeed leaners they've become!  Grin
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« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2012, 16:02:42 PM »

Quote
we take in leaners straight from matric every year

Indeed leaners they've become!  Grin

oh-gods....  Embarrassed

 Cheesy
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« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2012, 18:24:36 PM »

I've experienced this personally, we take in leaners straight from matric every year, and I insist on a hand written essay before I even bother to meet them for an interview. The spelling is horrific in most cases, and many of them tend to write with a mixture of script and caps and of-course many of them write in abbreviations. Its scary. It doesnt end there though, I've had kids texting their buddies during the interview, kids that flop onto their backends and greet you with a "howzit" and dont get up when you greet them. Its not just the book knowledge going to the dogs, but the general upbringing and lack of social skills and manners are really a concern. And please note, these are the kids from the model C schools I'm referring too. Most the kids I do select for my branch of the program comes from rural areas, they tend to have better manners and a willingness (no, make that an eagerness) to learn.

Looks like I overestimated Model C schools. I have noticed that kids from the rural areas, where there are often still traditional family and tribal structures, often have way better manners and work ethic.

Well, take your revenge on all those unmannered slackers by simply not appointing them.  ;-)

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« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2012, 20:11:00 PM »

Quote
And please note, these are the kids from the model C schools I'm referring too. Most the kids I do select for my branch of the program comes from rural areas, they tend to have better manners and a willingness (no, make that an eagerness) to learn.

I would agree. I teach a lot of refugee children from DRC, Angola and Rwanda and they are the sweetest, most polite and hard-working learners you could ever wish to teach. Plus some of them speak more than 5 languages aged just 15. Some of their life stories are heart-wrenching but they turn up at school ready to learn no matter what is going on at home, while many others from more privileged backgrounds act like they are doing me a favour just by showing up!


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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2012, 16:46:43 PM »

i have no idea how people can be in denial about dino's, evolution, and the fact that the earth is kak old.  it boggles my mind. 
 Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh?
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Brian
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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2012, 18:17:18 PM »

No man! the dino's were placed there to confuse us hominids...this seriously is an argument I had to listen to. WTF!!
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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2012, 18:48:09 PM »

No man! the dino's were placed there to confuse us hominids...this seriously is an argument I had to listen to. WTF!!

The notion that fossils were put there by God to test our faith, or by the devil to lead us astray, is not all that uncommon among funides, as is the idea that they are all fakes. Yup, every last one of them.
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cyghost
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« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2012, 07:17:55 AM »

Well if you manage to believe in a skydaddy that loves you and coddles you and wants you to suck his Cosmic Cock every day of your life, you can probably end up believing any shit whatsoever....
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