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Capitalist Party of South Africa

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brianvds
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« on: April 09, 2019, 16:27:30 PM »

Their website:

https://capitalist.org.za/home

So, does anyone know anything about them? Are they worth a vote?
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2019, 16:50:31 PM »

I am really, really intrigued but not yet convinced. However details seem thin on the ground.
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brianvds
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2019, 04:09:37 AM »

I am really, really intrigued but not yet convinced. However details seem thin on the ground.

I haven't watched their little videos yet, so I don't know how good their plans are. But I like their notion of smaller parties letting go of grandiose plans and instead focus on smaller but achievable goals. I also think they are right in that within an election or two, SA will have a coalition government, at which point it becomes very feasible to vote for smaller parties.
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brianvds
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 09:57:50 AM »

Got around to watching their videos. Some of their plans seem very workable to me; others (such as reducing violence against women by arming them) strike me as more dubious. I am not entirely sure about their economic plans (e.g. negative tax) because I am not really qualified to critique it. On the face of it, it also seems like a workable idea.

In any event, for those of somewhat libertarian bent, they are the only option. The actual libertarian party, as with last election, will not be running. My guess is that they are so embroiled in issues of ideology that they can't get their ducks in a row. But what we need now is a plan, not an ideology. Alas, the chances that the capitalists will get enough votes to get a representative into parliament are probably very slim. Almost nobody even knows about them, and the ones who do will likely argue that it is a "wasted vote."

I haven't quite decided where I stand on the issue. It would actually be nice to vote for someone for a change, instead of merely against someone, as we tend to do both here and in the U.S.A. In both countries, that attitude has poisoned political discourse.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 10:59:29 AM »

Well, by the bevy of people asking me about this, both online and IRL.... I think their support may be understated.

The trick with a party like this is to convince everyone that everyone else is also thinking the same thing.
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brianvds
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 13:05:44 PM »

Well, by the bevy of people asking me about this, both online and IRL.... I think their support may be understated.

The trick with a party like this is to convince everyone that everyone else is also thinking the same thing.

Yup. The reason why a small party like this fails to get someone into parliament is precisely because voters think they won't, and therefore think it would be a "wasted vote." So they vote for someone else, even someone that leaves a bad taste in their mouth.

But even if they don't get into parliament, a vote for them isn't wasted; it forms part of the data they have at their disposal to do better next time. To some extent it also sends out the "none of the above" message to the big parties.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2019, 15:43:40 PM »

You know.... from the last couple of elections I actually have "super emergency" fatigue.

It feels like every election is an SA "do or die" situation. I think this time around I may actually vote with my conscience.

Edit: For clarity, what exactly that means I don't know yet.
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brianvds
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2019, 16:07:58 PM »

You know.... from the last couple of elections I actually have "super emergency" fatigue.

It feels like every election is an SA "do or die" situation. I think this time around I may actually vote with my conscience.

Edit: For clarity, what exactly that means I don't know yet.

I have noticed this emergency thing with Americans: every single election for the past few decades they told me that next time round they'll vote with their conscience, but this time's too important; if the wrong guy gets in, it's the end of civilization as we know it. We have seen where this attitude has brought them: as it is their choices have always been severely limited, and nowadays, come election time, they have a choice between the right wing (Hillary and pals) and the batshit insane wing (the current administration and support). Their democracy has become so dysfunctional it has to significant extent ended.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2019, 17:28:50 PM »

Here's what the man himself says about the "wasted vote" argument: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrsu5fYEtB4#t=10m44s
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brianvds
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2019, 06:24:54 AM »

Here's what the man himself says about the "wasted vote" argument: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrsu5fYEtB4#t=10m44s

He's right too. In a proportional representation system, it makes sense to vote your conscience. On lots of issues, they will probably support the DA in parliament anyway. And even if they don't get a seat, it is still not a "wasted vote," because it gives them valuable information on how much support they have and where, so they can gear up for the next election.

There are times when it makes sense to vote tactically, but one should be very wary of it, because it weakens the fabric of democracy. At least, I think there is a danger of that.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 09:52:17 AM »

The lavender bovine got my national vote today. Emotionally, it was a curious mix of bored dread and cautious curiosity. A bit like installing Ubuntu over Windows for the first time.
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brianvds
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 12:34:03 PM »

The lavender bovine got my national vote today. Emotionally, it was a curious mix of bored dread and cautious curiosity. A bit like installing Ubuntu over Windows for the first time.


Same with me. Perhaps they won't get enough votes to reach parliament, in which case it was a "wasted vote," but then at least they can't do any harm!

On provincial level I somewhat reluctantly supported the DA. They do have a fairly good record of clean administration, but Jesus, the whoring for votes. I eventually had to block their number to stop getting calls at all hours of the day. And I hated their negative campaign, actually making up reasons for why people should not vote for smaller parties. "Don't vote your conscience, vote for us, because otherwise the ANC gets in."

Douglas Adams's planet of lizards all over again.
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brianvds
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2019, 14:16:11 PM »

Doesn't look like the Purple Cow will get anywhere remotely close to parliament. Well, we tried. MOOOO!
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2019, 15:56:29 PM »

I'd hold the phone on that one. It doesn't look good but their target audience remains largely uncounted (populous metros).
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brianvds
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2019, 16:24:55 PM »

I'd hold the phone on that one. It doesn't look good but their target audience remains largely uncounted (populous metros).

Well, we'll see. Thus far, it actually looks as if the status quo will be largely maintained. The ANC seems to have lost quite a bit of support, but the other parties remain pretty much the same. At least, that is the case at the moment, which 9/5/2019, 16:24.
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brianvds
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2019, 08:00:22 AM »

This report:

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-05-10-sas-biggest-electoral-losers-say-goodbye-to-the-minnows-outsiders-underdogs-and-chancers/

is almost gleeful about how badly the "extremist" parties lost. Well, some of them are extremist. The Purple Cow did not strike me as extremist at all. And real extremist parties like the EFF and the Freedom Front both did significantly better this election than they did last time, which I would consider somewhat worrying news; fortunately, while both did better, they did not do spectacularly better because both started from a low base.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2019, 08:26:56 AM »

The BLF, however, will not be missed.
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Tweefo
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2019, 09:40:23 AM »

This report:

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-05-10-sas-biggest-electoral-losers-say-goodbye-to-the-minnows-outsiders-underdogs-and-chancers/

is almost gleeful about how badly the "extremist" parties lost. Well, some of them are extremist. The Purple Cow did not strike me as extremist at all. And real extremist parties like the EFF and the Freedom Front both did significantly better this election than they did last time, which I would consider somewhat worrying news; fortunately, while both did better, they did not do spectacularly better because both started from a low base.
Bet you, that communist son of mine (again, where did I go wrong?) would like to have a word with you about the capitalist's not being extremist. But I agree with you the FF+ and the EFF. We really don't need shit like that. I voted DA, but it was more a vote for the opposition than for the DA specifically.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2019, 11:44:13 AM »

And real extremist parties like the EFF and the Freedom Front both did significantly better this election than they did last time, which I would consider somewhat worrying news; …
But I agree with you the FF+ and the EFF. We really don't need shit like that.
I’m not so sure about that.  An argument could be made that the growth seen in both the EFF and the FF+ serves as a buffer that absorbs many of the more radical and conservative elements of the ANC and DA, respectively.  That is, the growth of those two parties has an important potential positive effect in that it will serve to consolidate the more moderate elements in both the ANC and DA, so that the two will be able to get on with the business of governance with less internal friction.

Whichever way it ultimately pans out, parliament will be an interesting thing to watch over the next few months.

Overall, the election results so far paint a depressing picture:  As a whole, SA’s voters are mostly content to perpetuate the past decade of governance, with only a fairly small fraction voting for something different.

'Luthon64
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2019, 12:20:59 PM »

ANC (Numbers rounded because why not)

2004: 70%
2009: 66%
2014: 62%
2019: 57% (Provisional)

Quote from: Mefiante
SA’s voters are mostly content to perpetuate the past decade of governance, with only a fairly small fraction voting for something different

Welcome back. Smiley

I think the above shows that, over time, every little bit helps. Let's applaud the trend.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2019, 13:35:13 PM »

I think everyone who voted for the ZACP should meet up at a Wimpy to brainstorm the way forward. I'll book one of their larger booths.
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brianvds
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« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2019, 14:45:33 PM »

This report:

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-05-10-sas-biggest-electoral-losers-say-goodbye-to-the-minnows-outsiders-underdogs-and-chancers/

is almost gleeful about how badly the "extremist" parties lost. Well, some of them are extremist. The Purple Cow did not strike me as extremist at all. And real extremist parties like the EFF and the Freedom Front both did significantly better this election than they did last time, which I would consider somewhat worrying news; fortunately, while both did better, they did not do spectacularly better because both started from a low base.
Bet you, that communist son of mine (again, where did I go wrong?) would like to have a word with you about the capitalist's not being extremist.

The funny thing is that the capitalist party was furiously attacked by some or other uber-libertarian for not being libertarian enough. :-)
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brianvds
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« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2019, 14:52:54 PM »

I’m not so sure about that.  An argument could be made that the growth seen in both the EFF and the FF+ serves as a buffer that absorbs many of the more radical and conservative elements of the ANC and DA, respectively.  That is, the growth of those two parties has an important potential positive effect in that it will serve to consolidate the more moderate elements in both the ANC and DA, so that the two will be able to get on with the business of governance with less internal friction.

All perfectly valid points; I would much rather see the angry young men vote for someone than rampaging through the city. The mere fact that there is a party there for them to support already helps to moderate them a bit. But I sure hope said parties don't manage to attract more than ten percent or so of the vote.

Quote
Whichever way it ultimately pans out, parliament will be an interesting thing to watch over the next few months.

It's do or die for Ramaphosa now. He got pretty much exactly the right number of votes: the ANC lost enough support to worry them, and it's pretty clear it was Zuma and his pals who cost them that support. But at the same time they didn't do so badly that they can hold Ramaphosa responsible. Which means he can now purge his party of every last Zumaite. He'd better do so quickly or he too will not finish his term before being "recalled," after which the Zuma types will have a free hand to plunder whatever is left to plunder. Heck, they might even bring zuma himself back.

If Ramaphosa plays his cards well, a renewed ANC might well win several more elections. Or for all I know, even govern until Jesus comes back. If they do a proper job, I don't mind either.

A dangerous situation would be if they got 51% of the vote, held Ramaphosa responsible and got rid of him, and then, knowing they would not win another election, go on a final plunder spree while they still could.

Quote
Overall, the election results so far paint a depressing picture:  As a whole, SA’s voters are mostly content to perpetuate the past decade of governance, with only a fairly small fraction voting for something different.

'Luthon64

Yup. The ANC at least got a little bit hammered, but for the rest, things remained pretty much the same. I think people are very nervous about even the idea of large scale change. That might not necessarily be a bad thing, or at least, not the worst possible outcome.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2019, 11:20:44 AM »

I’m not so sure about that.  An argument could be made that the growth seen in both the EFF and the FF+ serves as a buffer that absorbs many of the more radical and conservative elements of the ANC and DA, respectively.  That is, the growth of those two parties has an important potential positive effect in that it will serve to consolidate the more moderate elements in both the ANC and DA, so that the two will be able to get on with the business of governance with less internal friction.

All perfectly valid points; I would much rather see the angry young men vote for someone than rampaging through the city

I'd say this is the main reason I think the VF+ is less radical than the EFF. The EFF's counter is probably more like the AWB.

Quote
Quote
Whichever way it ultimately pans out, parliament will be an interesting thing to watch over the next few months.

It's do or die for Ramaphosa now. He got pretty much exactly the right number of votes: the ANC lost enough support to worry them, and it's pretty clear it was Zuma and his pals who cost them that support. But at the same time they didn't do so badly that they can hold Ramaphosa responsible. Which means he can now purge his party of every last Zumaite.

I think it's a toss-up whether this is possible at all. Time will tell I guess.


Anyhow, I did vote purple cow, and I feel really happy I did. I don't think I "wasted" a vote because it now feels, more than ever, that they needed every single vote they got. It feels like it mattered, if only to legitimise them for next time. I think, getting as close as they did.... with a 6-7 week campaign on a shoe-string budget, Compared to how much noise a "party" like the BLF makes.... is still pretty damn impressive. I'm glad my vote didn't get drowned in a sea of votes for a party I don't believe in anyway.

Pity about Gauteng though...
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brianvds
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« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2019, 12:41:06 PM »

I'd say this is the main reason I think the VF+ is less radical than the EFF. The EFF's counter is probably more like the AWB.

Yes, at least the VF's leadership is vastly more civilized and responsible. I do get the impression though that the party attracts a great deal of the openly racist and theocratic vote, partly because there isn't really anyone else they can vote for, except perhaps Dan Roodt's outfit, which everyone knows is a wasted vote. :-)

Quote
I think it's a toss-up whether this is possible at all. Time will tell I guess.

If he doesn't manage to assert control, the ANC will likely not get 50% next time. Then it will be coalition government time, and an excellent opportunity for smaller parties.

I see Max du Preez suggested that the responsible part of the ANC and the DA should actually merge. They have pretty much similar policies anyway. Then the Zuma-ites and EFF can work together, and we'd have a large and fairly middle of the road party, with some smaller ones on the left and right.

I suppose it isn't a very likely scenario, and it's risky too. Such a new party might lose all support the two separate ones had.


Quote
Anyhow, I did vote purple cow, and I feel really happy I did. I don't think I "wasted" a vote because it now feels, more than ever, that they needed every single vote they got. It feels like it mattered, if only to legitimise them for next time. I think, getting as close as they did.... with a 6-7 week campaign on a shoe-string budget, Compared to how much noise a "party" like the BLF makes.... is still pretty damn impressive. I'm glad my vote didn't get drowned in a sea of votes for a party I don't believe in anyway.

I agree. They actually didn't do half bad for a recently formed party; such new parties seldom get much traction the first time round. They must now just keep doing what they do and not make the mistake of the Libertarian party and KISS. The libertarians are so busy fighting internecine wars over the finer points of ideology that they never get around to even putting up a candidate. And KISS never bothered to even have a website, let alone such things as regular blog posts and press releases. The stupid party name also made it look like a loony outfit, which it probably was.

If the purple cow plays her cards right, they will get many more votes next time. They must just stay away from too much ideology, keep on focusing on actual plans, and keep up their visibility by regular updates on their website, and regular press releases about current issues. If they do that they may well have my vote again next time, because I have resolved that at least for national elections, I will henceforth vote my conscience or I will not vote at all.

Incidentally, speaking of Africa's politics, I'm reading Keith Richburg's Out of America at the moment. Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/113393.Out_of_America

Very refreshing indeed to see a black man tell it like it is. You can't very well accuse him of racism! He mercilessly asks all those uncomfortable questions, e.g. why exactly are Asian countries with a recent history of brutal colonialism and civil war, such as Korea and Vietnam, doing so much better than Africa? Why is it that you can criticize almost any government for almost anything, but the moment you criticize an African country you're suddenly a racist and neocolonialist? Why is that black American leaders, of all people, would share stages with some of the worst human rights violators in history, and wax lyrical about how great they are?

Well, I'm not done yet, but thus far a very interesting read.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2019, 14:40:02 PM »

The ZACP has a devious plan to keep parliament in check.
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