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Christianity

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rwenzori
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« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2009, 05:08:25 AM »

God did not create perfect people. He created sinners.

Seems like pretty a rookie mistake right at the start.

Yup - looks like a bit of an "Epic Fail" by god LOL!  Grin
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2009, 11:10:06 AM »


Welcome Johanbr. Smiley

I hope and trust that we will just be able to accept that there are always going to be differences of opinion.

Very true. But remember that a maximum of only one of those competing opinions can be correct. No amount of tolerance or "respect" for each other's opinion will change that fact.

Mintaka
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Mefiante
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« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2009, 18:06:34 PM »

I found my religion and Saviour when I realized that I should not accept anything anybody (even preachers or so called prophets) say until I have investigated through study of God's word before deciding whether it is worth taking note of or not.
So then the obvious question is how you know that you can trust your god’s word if you “should not accept anything anybody … [says until you] have investigated…?”  Equally importantly, how do you know that you can trust that it is in fact your god’s word?

Scepticism is, after all, about maintaining a healthy mistrust of any claims that are unsupported by proper evidence, and even more so about claims that for all practical intents are actually unsupportable.

'Luthon64
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Peter Grant
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« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2009, 20:16:51 PM »

My faith is built upon my personal relationship with my Maker.

LOL mine too! Grin Check my sig.

Thor is still convinced he's real, but I'm working on him. The problem is, whenever we get into a really deep discussion he gets up and shouts: "But my hammer is real!" and proceeds to smash things.

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Jane of the Jungle
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« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2009, 01:13:05 AM »

Welcome Johanbr,

Take a tour on this site, maybe you come across answers for the never ending
questions on your religion!  BTW which god is yours? Who is your maker?

Agdistis or Angdistis?
Ah Puch?
Ahura Mazda?
Alberich?
Allah?
Amaterasu?
An?
Anansi?
Anat?
Andvari?
Anshar?
Anu?
Aphrodite?
Apollo?
Apsu?
Ares?
Artemis?
Asclepius?
Athena?
Athirat?
Athtart?
Atlas?

Let me just get clarity here, you are sceptic, but you still believe god exists?  Would you classify yourself as
a agnostic?  If you still believe god exist .....

One question though:  Why would your god create sinners, if he created humans to his image?  Does that mean you’re hell bound from day one?  A new born baby are an Atheist (non believer)  and would be hell bound if he should die after birth or within a few months!  How can he/she be held accountable for sins in the same way a murderer would be?
Not fair at all, is it, as a matter of fact it doesn't even make sense!


« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 01:34:24 AM by Jane of the Jungle » Logged
BoogieMonster
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« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2009, 11:57:05 AM »

Quote from: Jane of the Jungle
Why would your god create sinners, if he created humans to his image?  Does that mean you’re hell bound from day one?

If God has a list of things a person must not do to make them a "good person":

Don't kill
Don't be jealous
Don't lie
Don't lead into temptation
Don't judge
.... and so on...

Why does God do all those things himself? Is he not a good person?

If you ask me, God is a huge sinner himself. Thus it follows that humans are indeed created in his image.  Grin
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Lilli
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« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2009, 15:39:17 PM »

Wow i have read this entire thread now and find this type of discussion absolutely fascinating. My question remains: whether or not a person believes in whichever god or no god at all - why does it matter?   

Let us assume that life is supposed to be the point of all this, that is what we are here to do - to be alive. And in my view, being alive is not that difficult, because it happens by proxy. In order for your average joe to stop being alive when he chooses, he has to actively engange in an activity that is going to end life. If he does nothing, he will remain alive. That being said - could one argue that the things people believe in (good/evil god/devil right/wrong better/worse etc etc) were made up, invented by man because live, being so easy, became so very boring?

So we all go through our little lives trying to achieve great things or simply trying to get by or trying to change the world around us or trying to end it depending on what floats your boat, but the existance of a god is not in my view dependant on whether or not he/she/it has followers. So whether or not I believe in whichever god or not makes no difference to that hypothetical entity. Similarly, I am not going to alter the way I do things for fear of a wrathful god sitting up on a cloud somewhere watching my every move and waiting for the right time to strike. So whether or not I believe in whichever god or not makes no difference to my life or the things I do.

Funny though, how even in light of this argument, even I cannot stop wondering and arguing about the god/no god issue.   
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2009, 16:40:13 PM »

Let us assume that life is supposed to be the point of all this, that is what we are here to do - to be alive.

Why do you assume that there should be a point at all? Wouldn't it make more sense to view life as a fascinating but inevitable consequence of chemistry?

There is no more point to life than there is a point to sodium chloride.

Mintaka
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2009, 17:55:00 PM »

Quote
That being said - could one argue that the things people believe in (good/evil god/devil right/wrong better/worse etc etc) were made up, invented by man because live, being so easy, became so very boring?

I would say these things originated out of inherent self interest on the part of living people. If wanton killing results in me not being alive anymore, then my morality will state that killing people is wrong/evil. Hence morality seems to result from self interest. We condemn those things as evil, that we don't want others to do to us. The dead have no input on the subject of morality. Because they're dead. Hence morality necessarily serves the living.
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Peter Grant
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« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2009, 21:48:52 PM »

My question remains: whether or not a person believes in whichever god or no god at all - why does it matter?   

Because belief effects behaviour. If you believe the creator of the universe is watching you all the time and He either approves of disapproves of what you do, you are bound to act differently. Equally importantly, people who say they know what God wants you to do are more likely to have an effect. Our society could do without this kind of credulity.
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Wandapec
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« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2009, 07:39:41 AM »

My question remains: whether or not a person believes in whichever god or no god at all - why does it matter?   

Because belief effects behaviour. If you believe the creator of the universe is watching you all the time and He either approves of disapproves of what you do, you are bound to act differently. Equally importantly, people who say they know what God wants you to do are more likely to have an effect. Our society could do without this kind of credulity.
I agree. Just as an example, if we could, ask the people that died in the buildings and planes on 9/11 whether they think it matters or not?
Why do you assume that there should be a point at all?
This is an excellent point!  Wink
My faith is built upon my personal relationship with my Maker.
I also have a great relationship with my mom and faith doesn't even come into the picture.
until I have investigated through study of God's word before deciding whether it is worth taking note of or not.
'Luthon64 and Jane's points are valid - I would be interested to know how you decided which god to investigate and study and what was the evidence for that? Or maybe explain how you excluded all the others?
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Lilli
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Lelani Stolp
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2009, 15:08:33 PM »

You say that belief affects behaviour. I will not at this time argue with you about that, but merely remind you that many things can affect a persons behaviour - not least of which is choice. People don't do what we do because we believe in fairness and goodness unless we conciously make the choice to be fair, or do good - because it will eventually benefit us as well. There is no such thing as a completely selfless act, and I dont think anybody really believes that the god they believe in needs THEM to survive.

Oh and I dont think the people who died in 9/11 really apply to this line of thought, they are dead... to quote from earlier in this conversation: "The dead have no input on the subject of morality. Because they're dead. Hence morality necessarily serves the living." (really like that, thanks)
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Wandapec
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« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2009, 15:59:52 PM »

Oh and I dont think the people who died in 9/11 really apply to this line of thought, they are dead... to quote from earlier in this conversation: "The dead have no input on the subject of morality. Because they're dead. Hence morality necessarily serves the living." (really like that, thanks)
My point was that these fellows behaved the way they did because the houri's were just too tempting.  Wink The alternative, to my missed point, would be to ask the loved ones of the people that died, whether or not it matters. Understandably, time will heal a lot of wounds but given a choice I think that many of the children etc. would have loved to have grown up with and got to know their mom's or dad's.

So the dead may not have any input on the subject of morality once they are dead, but their actions while they were living do tell you something, don't they?
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Peter Grant
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« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2009, 19:45:49 PM »

You say that belief affects behaviour. I will not at this time argue with you about that, but merely remind you that many things can affect a persons behaviour - not least of which is choice.

Please define your use of the word choice. The kind I'm familiar with is based on beliefs one holds about reality. Without these beliefs one would hardly be choosing, more like guessing.

People don't do what we do because we believe in fairness and goodness unless we conciously make the choice to be fair, or do good - because it will eventually benefit us as well.

I don't really think so, I find myself being nice just because I find it enjoyable and often easier.

There is no such thing as a completely selfless act,

Why do you say this? I can think if many examples of heroic acts people have performed at great risk to themselves.

and I dont think anybody really believes that the god they believe in needs THEM to survive.

No, but they don't really believe they can be killed either, just tortured or rewarded eternally.
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« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2009, 21:19:50 PM »

My question remains: whether or not a person believes in whichever god or no god at all - why does it matter?
Do you think people are happy believing anything as long as it keeps them happy? If you tell someone their beliefs are dodgy, they'll jump up to defend them as being true. What they won't do is say "Well, this belief makes me feel good". So most people have a basic understanding that truth is very important for its own sake. That's one good reason why it matters.

Another one is summed up in the words of Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities". Sociopaths and psychopaths are not the human norm. That's another good reason that it matters. Who wants to be an unthinking slave to belief?
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