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Daniela Leigh and her House of Angels

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Mefiante
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« on: July 24, 2007, 10:21:19 AM »

Cape Town seems to be besieged by an inordinate proportion of assorted snake oil salesmen, amply complemented by an almost endless supply of suckers.  In this light, I draw your attention to yet another happy horde of hucksters whose main shtick is “angel reading,” besides, that is, exploiting gullible dupes, self-aggrandisement and dispensing much saccharine touchy-feely, warm-and-fuzzy rhetoric.

These “angel practitioners and helpers” do this in the name of “spiritual work,” which they say helps others, and must therefore not be judged, especially by grouchy old sceptics such as I who demand some actual evidence in support of their claims.  Otherwise they can be rightfully judged to be little more than rip-off artists, bereft of any honour or decency, or severely deluded, or possibly both.  So let’s start with the existence of these angelic entities, shall we?  In the meantime, perhaps one of them would like to buy one of these little aluminium foil beads that I rolled earlier today and then blessed with the Healing Quantum Harmonics of Resonant Gluon Binding Energy, which can cure anything and whatever ails one – only R250.00, instructions included, but hurry, stocks are limited!

No doubt, they will have some smarmy, mealy-mouthed, self-serving idiom in which to frame my doubt – something along the lines of my not being ready to see or similar.  Well, as long as the “evidence” consists exclusively of their individual and collective say-so, they’ll have to either put up with occasional needling or otherwise admit that they’re talking out of the backs of their heads.

The latter probably will never happen, though, at least not as long as the cash keeps rolling in.

'Luthon64
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 10:28:15 AM by Anacoluthon64 » Logged
angel 11
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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2007, 17:31:28 PM »

Thank you for you criticism and skepticism.  You have everyright to have your beliefs or disbeliefs, but please rest assured that I am neither rich nor on the way of been rich. In fact, quite the opposite. Its very hard to believe in something that you don't know or that you don't feel. If we charge for our services it is because like everyone else on this earth we have to make a living and I have a family to support.  We are spiritual counsellor, we don't sell anything nor do we try to force any opinions on anyone.  People come to us for help and guidance, and I do believe that through all the skeptics in the world,we have truly helped thousands of people to change their lives. When I say no judgements,no, I do not judge you, or your beliefs and all I ask is to be respected in my beliefs. Angels might not be part of your world, but they are surely part of mine.they have protected and helped me in every situation.  My goal in life is to empower people, to help them to change their lives, and to feel happy within themselves.  Dear Luthon, Cape town is an amazingly spiritual doorway at the moment, and deep within you there is a soul that wants to believe in something but is too afraid to open the door.  Whatever, you believe, in which ever way you criticize us, we know that we are on the right path, that our angels are with us, and that people feel blessed not conned to have found their way to us. I stand strong in the love and light of the Universe, and I hope that at some point the light finds you too and shines on your life.  Find happiness, because with love and joy in your heart, you won't be so ready to judge and criticize others that are doing good in this world.
in love and light
Daniela Leigh
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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2007, 13:42:47 PM »

These “angel practitioners and helpers” do this in the name of “spiritual work,” which they say helps others, and must therefore not be judged, especially by grouchy old sceptics such as I who demand some actual evidence in support of their claims.
'Luthon64


I indirectly own a set of Angel Tarot cards, amongst a pile of similar items I have collected throughout my research into the paranormal and religion etc.

The cards are based on the original principle of tarot card readings.  Instead of having the more common cards like "death" etc. or the face of a normal playing card, these cards have pictures of celestial beings or "angels", their names and a message.  You select a card with your receiving or left hand, and place it in a predetermined pattern.  From there the "angels" provide you with answers to questions you have or questions you didn't think of or a message that you need to hear.

I pose that this is no different to horoscope readings, especially the ones we see on DSTV or in newspapers and magazines.  If one had to analyse the result (and I mean the type of analysis done with the analytical mind) one would have to agree that the "answers" or "readings" are so general, that with a bit of imagination and interpretation, it could literally apply to anyone.

I also own a set of Osho-Zen Tarot cards, and apart from containing old zen Budhist teachings, the application and my conclusion of them is pretty much the same.  Very interesting, and a great party trick, but absolutely no relevance to real life.

Angels might not be part of your world, but they are surely part of mine.they have protected and helped me in every situation.


As for the supposed source of the reading or the medium; what exactly is an "angel" and where is the evidence of its existence.  The only "angels" I have heard of, is the angels written about in religious texts,  the existence of which have never been proven.  I also have a number of friends from different religious denominations, and most of them have a serious problem with tarot cards.

I frown slightly when people claim to see, hear or “experience” what no-one else can.  People, please, I BEG YOU, familiarise yourself with this Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

My goal in life is to empower people, to help them to change their lives, and to feel happy within themselves.


It is an admirable notion to provide others with hope and assist them in improving their mental state.  There is however a more serious issue at hand.  Is it to the person's advantage to be offered a temporary and superficial solution to their problem, given false hope and draw their attention away from the only thing that could solve their problems, the analytical mind?  In a way, this type of "solution" murders the person's ability to think and problem-solve.  Mental abuse - a punishable offence! People do this to their children for crying out loud!

If we charge for our services it is because like everyone else on this earth we have to make a living and I have a family to support


Does this give me the right to extort money from people?

If I market a gadget or service that claims to do something and it doesn't, I will get sued for fraud and thrown into a dark hole before I can cash a single cheque.  Because the masses are unwilling to question and seek proof of the supernatural, it leaves a gap for supernatural con-men and faith healers to “LEGALLY” extort money from millions of desperate people.  They should be ashamed of themselves, but unfortunately they either have no conscience (psychopaths) or they really believe in the junk they punt (refer to previous Wikipedia link).

Sentinel - "We are creatures of air, Our roots in dreams And clouds, reborn in flight." The Angel Gibreel in Salmon Rushdie's Satanic Verses





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Mefiante
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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2007, 15:48:03 PM »

Thanks, Sentinel, for attempting to give this issue some sort of perspective.



Thank you for you criticism and skepticism.
It's a pleasure, though I somehow doubt that you really mean this.



You have everyright to have your beliefs or disbeliefs, but please rest assured that I am neither rich nor on the way of been rich. In fact, quite the opposite. Its very hard to believe in something that you don't know or that you don't feel. If we charge for our services it is because like everyone else on this earth we have to make a living and I have a family to support.
Yes, but you do not have the right to deceive people in order to get them to give you their money – that's more usually called "fraud," as Sentinel has already pointed out.



We are spiritual counsellor, we don't sell anything nor do we try to force any opinions on anyone.  People come to us for help and guidance, and I do believe that through all the skeptics in the world,we have truly helped thousands of people to change their lives.
So if I call myself a "xyz" and say that I can do "abc," then charge people so-and-so-much a session for doing essentially nothing, you seem to feel that that's justified as long as I and my clients believe it to be beneficial.  I'm afraid I must disagree: the onus is very firmly on me to be able to prove that I can do what I say I can, independent of what my clients might say and what I choose to believe.  If you really do think so, my aluminium bead offer still stands.



When I say no judgements,no, I do not judge you, or your beliefs and all I ask is to be respected in my beliefs.
You plainly do judge: your entire response reveals that you think the criticisms herein are unfair, otherwise you would have responded quite differently, I think.



Angels might not be part of your world, but they are surely part of mine.they have protected and helped me in every situation.
How, exactly, do you know this?  And, much more importantly, can you actually prove it?



My goal in life is to empower people, to help them to change their lives, and to feel happy within themselves.
Why, that's also one of the more important aims of this forum: get people to think critically so that they can make informed decisions in and about their lives!



Dear Luthon, Cape town is an amazingly spiritual doorway at the moment, and deep within you there is a soul that wants to believe in something but is too afraid to open the door.
Too afraid?  No, I don't think so.  To quote Yale psychology professor Paul Bloom:
Quote from: Paul Bloom interviewed by Jenny Rothenberg
PB: "When people tell me how 'spiritual' they are, I roll my eyes."
JR: "Well, it's one of those words that's been over-used to the point of self-parody."
PB: "People typically use it to tell you how wonderful they are.  I would like to move away from such notions and towards more secular virtues such as intelligence and empathy and kindness and good sense."




Whatever, you believe, in which ever way you criticize us, we know that we are on the right path, that our angels are with us, and that people feel blessed not conned to have found their way to us.
Yes, that's exactly the problem: you say that you know.  But do you really?  Because, so far, you haven't actually put anything verifiable on the table other than the implication that you feel you've been hard done by.



I stand strong in the love and light of the Universe, and I hope that at some point the light finds you too and shines on your life.  Find happiness, because with love and joy in your heart, you won't be so ready to judge and criticize others that are doing good in this world.
Well, such a conversion is very unlikely to happen in me as long as sweet talk is thought to be a valid substitute for reason and evidence.  As for being "so ready to judge and criticize others," I would be more than happy to drop that habit if more people showed themselves ready to assess claims such as yours against the character of the evidence in their support.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2007, 12:10:05 PM »

Thank you for responding angel 11. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are trying to help people to the best of your abilities. But there are a lot of people and organizations out there, indistinguishable from yours, that really are deceiving people for financial gain.
This is unfortunately why you have to give at least some proof that you are genuine.

I would appreciate it if you could tell us more about why you believe what you believe in. You do have the right to your own beliefs, but as others have pointed out, it is not always harmless and do affect other people, and that is why I suspect most people here will have a problem with it. I do not respect a belief just because someone believes it. But I can respect someone's belief if you can give me a good enough reason to.

I am sure you do have a positive influence on your clients - otherwise you would not have a business. But lets take one of your products for example:
Your Blessing Bags claim to help the following:
  • Love - to bind relationships; to make love stronger; to attract a soulmate
  • Work - to attract a job; find a new direction; have a more pleasant working environment
  • Financial - to earn and attract more money; to attract money to pay off debts
  • Passing exams
  • Abuse/drugs- to stop abuse; to help someone get off drugs
  • Children - to be fertile and conceive a child
  • Health - to recover from illness - to remove disease from the body
And it costs R300
Some of these are serious problems. Lets say I am struggling with exams or drug abuse. If I use your prayer bag, instead of getting qualified help from a drug councilor or teacher and it doesn't work, I am now in even deeper trouble than before. I wasted R300 and did not do anything productive to solve my problem.

So you better be sure that the prayer bag works - otherwise you are seriously harming you clients and not helping them. If you don't know or are unsure, you are irresponsible and/or negligent. If you know it does not work, you are deceptive. But since you claim that you are neither, you must know that it works.

And this is the proof that we are looking for as well.


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angel 11
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2007, 22:19:00 PM »

Wow, actually this is an amazing sight. although it feels like you are all attacking me, without actually knowing me or my work, I welcome, the scepticism, because I truly believe that it is through your thinking and evolving, that you are on your own steam going to find yourselves and who you truly are and believe in.
You are all trying to get tangible proof,and in a position to defend myself.
i have nothing to defend, nor do I judge any of your beliefs. I welcome different beliefs in this world. its only through your own belief stystem that you will survive on this battlefield earth.  I do not have to explain my work , nor my spiritual part on this earth.  I do not force anyone to come to me, and believe me, when I tell you that I work till ten at night sometimes, that I am completely drained, and that I give 100% of myself to help people in this world. no I am not a martyr, I just love to help people, to see them shine and stand on their own again, and no, not with my ideas or beliefs but with their own.  I am a trained counsellor and I have studies psychology, and in our work of empowerment my training skills are recognized.l I am the chairperson of the natural healers association, SO if you guys do not believe in amalgamating traditional psychological healing techniques with alternative this is your choice. All I know is that I am doing good in the world. where the blessings bags are concerned, I am glad that you brought this up.
The blessing bag is an ancient tradition that goes back in time. scientifically, the alpha side of the brain, recognizes and acknowledges the language of symbols.
I truly believe that everyone is the master of their own destiny, and we help them to find the goalposts and help them to believe positively in their own goals.
when someone sets a goal, and sends out a powerful prayer, and really believes in it, then he will manifest it.  I work on these bags for three days. It is a powerful prayer and ritual. And no there is no guarantees, and yes, they have worked many times, because it helps the client to focus on what they want.
and to culminate their prayers with it. Believe what you want my fellow humans, but please let me have my beliefs. if you wish to view my work in any way at present, see it as a new form of psychology , life coach or counselling.We do not give anyone false beliefs, or false hopes, we deal with reality, we help people to find themselves and their lives. and yes, you are right, I do have many clients who come back to me, not because of What I see or do, but because I help them to feel good about themselves and their lives.   I truly hope that you have all have a wonderful day, week and month, and remember all of you, smile, the world is good.
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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2007, 10:28:15 AM »

Yes I agree, the world is good. And I am smiling. Thank you for replying.
I believe you when you say that you work hard and I'm sure that you do believe in what you do. If you don't mind, I would like you to answer these questions though.
How do you handle someone who comes to you with a serious problem like HIV or difficulty with passing exams? These are serious problems that could benefit from positive thinking, but not be solved by it.
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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2007, 18:45:43 PM »

Hi Blueray,
first with the Hiv, we help them to accept the situation they are in, to feel strong through their illness, to achieve and live their life to the full, and to apply metaphysical principals, in their healing, ovbiously together with the normal medication that they take. Once acceptance is there, you can look and see at what you can do in your life, to be stronger, whether its in a creative or other way, or to make a difference and perhaps help others as well. No matter what diseas or illness you have, you still have the ability to live life to the full, and not allow it to get you down.  Thats where I help them to make the difference. Its ok to be angry, to be sad, to feel hurt, but then I teach them ways to pick themselves up and look for spark in their lives, whatever it may be. With people struggling with exams, I teach them through meditation, to focus more, to be able to read more and to absorb more in the memory banks.  its quite amazing the results actually.
Your mind is an exceptional tool, and we are only learning how to use it now.
thank you for giving me the chance the air my views.
in love and light
Daniela
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2007, 10:10:41 AM »

From the above, it seems that you do what any councilor or therapist would do. Or any good mother for that matter. I am also glad to hear that it is in addition to their normal (proven) medication.
I don't think anyone would disagree that positive reinforcement and support would be beneficial when dealing with any illness or problem. But you fail to mention where you use angels, blessing bags or other things that you sell through your website. How would a blessing bag help someone that comes to you with HIV or a learning problem?
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2007, 10:52:46 AM »

Good Morning

I am one of Daniela's students and I must say that even though you are entitled to your own beliefs, it is unfair the way you are slandering my teacher and mentor. I used to be one of those people people in the past who needed scientific evidence and this was due to my own lack of faith. Sometimes in this life the ownly way one can 'see the light' is to go through some really hard times. I went through that and had an 'awakening'. You obviously have not and that is why you are still a skeptic. I do not judge you but I don't think you should judge the work Daniela is doing unless you try it for yourself. Attend a workshop, see what this lady is trying to do. She is selfless and will put others before herself if they are in need.

We are all on our own journey in this world, and our spiritual journey is a personal one and an awakening happens to everyone in it's own unique way. Through working with Daniela, I have connected with my angels, I have experienced miracles and I have felt my angels with me through some troubling times.

Imagine me giving my views on a topic like, quantum physics, when I've not studied or done research on the subject. If you want evidence, attend the workshops and then give your views on the subject. You know the saying: 'Seeing is believing'.....so, see for yourself.
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2007, 11:37:12 AM »

I agree. First hand experience would give much more insight into what you do. I am willing to attend one of the workshops if someone could sponsor me.

But please don't assume that because I'm skeptical of you and your teacher's claims that I have not been through hard times and therefore just hasn't seen the light yet. You have offered no proof of any of your claims yet, and since most of your claims goes against what we know about our world, I think it's fair to ask you to prove yourself.

As I said previously. I'm sure that your intentions are good, I do however have a problem with your methods.

The difference between your claims and any claims made by quantum physics, is that there is plenty of proof available for quantum physics, but none for your claims.

And no, seeing is not necessarily believing, as shown here: Wink
http://forum.skeptic.za.org/news-and-current-events/in-memory-of-jerry-andrus/0/
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Mefiante
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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2007, 12:08:29 PM »

(Pipped at the post by bluegray VWink )

Good Morning ne02001, and welcome to the forum.



I am one of Daniela's students and I must say that even though you are entitled to your own beliefs, it is unfair the way you are slandering my teacher and mentor.
"Slandering?"  You may wish to look the term up before levelling unsustainable accusations.



I used to be one of those people people in the past who needed scientific evidence and this was due to my own lack of faith.
Faith is no basis for anything that can rightfully be called "knowledge."  Philosophers are largely agreed that a good working definition of "knowledge" is "a justified true belief" (emphasis added).  An appeal to "faith" denies, at the very least, the bit about the belief being justified in order to qualify as knowledge, so your position is already limping by the time it leaves the start gate.



Sometimes in this life the ownly way one can 'see the light' is to go through some really hard times. I went through that and had an 'awakening'. You obviously have not and that is why you are still a skeptic.
You see, that's your difficulty right there: you know absolutely nothing about any of us sceptics and what we've been through, yet you arrogantly assume that any disagreement with you is the result of some spiritual and/or experiential inferiority, compared to yourself.  It obviously hasn't occurred to you that my rejection of what you seem to hold in such high esteem may the result of considerable inquiry and introspection.



I do not judge you …
Oh yes, you very much do.  Or otherwise your understanding of "to judge" is very odd.



… but I don't think you should judge the work Daniela is doing unless you try it for yourself.
I don't need to stick pins into my eyes in order to judge that actually doing so is very probably harmful, so this argument is nonsense.



Attend a workshop, see what this lady is trying to do. She is selfless and will put others before herself if they are in need.
That may be so, and is in itself admirable, if true.  However, that's not the issue; the issue is that there is, so far, no reliable evidence to support any of the basic claims being put forth.  What we do have is a whole lot of people standing up and saying, "I swear it's true!"  Well, that's not good enough.  How will you or your mentor answer a judge or magistrate in a Court of Law when he asks you to prove that your "angels" guided you to commit an action that had harmful consequences?  Or are your "angels" incapable of making such mistakes?  Because that, too, can be tested.



We are all on our own journey in this world, and our spiritual journey is a personal one and an awakening happens to everyone in it's own unique way. Through working with Daniela, I have connected with my angels, I have experienced miracles and I have felt my angels with me through some troubling times.
Yes, I'm sure you believe that, and also that there's absolutely no way you could be mistaken.



Imagine me giving my views on a topic like, quantum physics, when I've not studied or done research on the subject. If you want evidence, attend the workshops and then give your views on the subject. You know the saying: 'Seeing is believing'.....so, see for yourself.
No, actually the saying is "Believing is seeing."  And it's not a question of "giving views" on a subject one has no experience or knowledge of; QM has testable consequences and a mountain of repeatable evidence that supports it, while "angels" are, judging by the available evidence, just as much a fairytale as are lime-green unicorns with pink hooves.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2007, 16:27:24 PM »

angel 11, rather than addressing point-by-point the issues raised in your previous two postings against which numerous objections can be legitimately raised, allow me to make a few general observations.  I will also ask that you please re-read previous posts in this thread.

It seems to me that you and your student, ne02001, are of the opinion that any and all methods are acceptable as long as you believe that you're doing good, i.e. that the end justifies the means, and that therefore you don't need to defend your claims.  You also seem to feel that you're being attacked personally here.  Addressing the last point first, it is your claims that are being attacked, not you; there's a monumental difference.

There are several possible responses to your apparent belief that what you're professing is acceptable without corroboration:
  • On what basis do you think that "doing good" completely absolves you having to substantiate your claims?
  • Belief on its own (i.e. without evidence) is not enough.  A person who believed him- or herself immune to gravity would not survive Earth (or anywhere else in this universe) for very long.
  • Have you entertained the possibility that you're actually doing even more harm to people by getting or encouraging them to believe in things they want to believe in simply because they're nice, rather than because they're true?
  • Saying that you're not forcing people to come to you does not release you from responsibility.  A conman doesn't usually force people to come to him/her either, but that doesn't make him/her any less of a conman.  And conmen generally will also tell you how hard they work.
  • The suggestion of "amalgamating traditional psychological healing techniques with alternative" is decidedly not a matter of personal choice; it is one of evidence, just as the efficacy of the aluminium bead I offered for sale in an earlier post is one of evidence, an offer that still stands, by the way.  Would you like to try it?  If not, why?
  • If someone came to you in the firm belief that they had a rabbit's paw that was able to let them glide like a kite from a 50-storey building, would you not, as a concerned human being, feel an obligation to attempt disabusing them of that obvious delusion?  How is a belief in "angels" substantively different from the rabbit's paw belief?
  • Psychology and psychological counselling are recognised fields of study and practice with fairly stringent governing codes.  You are the first practitioner I am aware of to advocate "angels" as a therapeutic device.  Where are the journal articles that sanction this idea?

In summary, you won't convince any sceptics of the truth of your propositions by repeating them ad nauseam and embellishing them with lots of feelgood rhetoric and solemn declarations of your good intentions.  The latter aren't in doubt; the former require proof, as has been made clear several times in several ways over the course of this thread.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2007, 18:03:09 PM »

I read this page with amused interest.  My opinion is that the writer "who simply advertises his OPINION" here is uninformed, cynical and well, nothing but vindictive.  It is clear to me that this person tries to portray himself as highly intelligent and yet, it definitely takes a very "special" kind of person to publicly admit ignorance the way he has done here.  First of all, the claim that there is no proof for the existence of angels, angelic beings or spirits is just simple proof that this person clearly does not read enough or has not done enough research to make these statements here concerning this subject.  Please obtain a copy of the book Angels & Miracles (Exclusive books) or any other such literature that are available on the market.  By making such an ignorant statement, you are claiming that hundreds of thousands of people who have given accounts over centuries of angelic help in times of great distress are liars.  What do YOU base your claims on that angels do NOT exist?  In the above literature, you will find an account of a fireman who saved the life of a small child and was trapped in the burning building only for a "stranger" to carry him to the threshold of the front door and safety as he could not clearly see through the smoke.  Are you stating this fireman (who was an atheist until that incident) is a liar too?  From your attack on spiritual or light workers, the only conclusions I can come to is (1) YOU are clearly an atheist (2) you clearly went to someone who provided you with some form of service claiming to BE  a light worker and you did not get what you wanted (3) you are a psychologist who feels threatened by the fact that these light workers - through angels, positivity or whatever other means deliver much better results than you have been able to.

I have experienced both sides of the spectrum.  Therapy from a psychologist to deal with the suicide of a life partner and therapy from a light worker such as Daniela Leigh and I ONLY released the pain, trauma and hurt of the experience when I had the regression with the Natural therapist!  The psychologist kept asking me "HOW I WAS FEELING".  WELL, how the do you THINK I felt after my boyfriend shot himself?  Whereas the Holistic therapist did a regression and with much love and compassion helped me to actually DEAL with the trauma.

Further to the above, you have a right to your OWN opinion, but may I give you some WONDERFUL advise?  PLEASE keep it to yourself.  Light workers, just like psychologists, builders, fireman, policemen and every other profession have their rightful place in this world - recognise THAT!  And AS in ANY other profession, there ARE ALWAYS the corrupt ones - just read the newspapers about some of our politicians, policemen and the likes!!  However, just as YOU claim PROOF of the existance of the angelic beings Daniela base her work on - WHERE is YOUR proof that she DOES NOT have the help of these beings?

Have you almost lost anyone to death?  I have.  My son almost died at the at of 2 in a horrific motor vehicle accident - I SAW an angel help us get out of the wreck that night!  WHY don't you attack Doreen Virtue; John Edward; Esther & Jerry Hicks and all the other authors and contributors to "The Secret" and "The Law of Attraction" and any other soul or spirit literature or services offered.  It is VERY interesting to me that you have this HUGE problem with the concept of Daniela stating she offers angel readings and services, yet Doreen Virtue is a WAY bigger public figure but you don't attack HER?  VERY, VERY interesting.

And by the way - I think we will pass on buying anything from you because with such a negative, cynical nature as you advertise, WHO would WANT to?  Please get YOUR facts straight and then come back into public and make claims YOU cannot sustain.

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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2007, 18:32:37 PM »

And a very good evening to you too, salvador.

My, my!  You accuse a writer – me, presumably, as the initiator and as a principal contributor to this thread – of a great deal, including the wrong gender.  You cite a book (Angels & Miracles) as your "evidence" for "the existence of angels, angelic beings or spirits."  You may have a hard time with the idea, but that's not evidence; rather, it is a collection of anecdotes.  Why is it not evidence?  Because there are thousands of books out there about, for example, perpetual motion and free energy machines, neither of which is even remotely plausible.  A book proves nothing other than that someone took the trouble of writing it.

Moreover, your own venom shows when you accuse me of ignorance, compounded by the unwarranted attribution to me of the inference that "witnesses" are, one and all, liars.  Where, please, have I said this?  See, there's the much stronger probability, supported by much psychological evidence, that they are simply mistaken and/or suggestible.

Finally, the onus of proof rests on those who make the claim.  There's no such thing as "a burden of disproof" on me or anyone else who doubts these claims.  If you "know" that these "angels" exist, you need to supply concrete evidence that is repeatable by anyone, anywhere at any time, at least in principle.  Ad hominem contumely and derision won't substitute for it, however.

This is suddenly starting to get very, very interesting.

Edited to add:  As for the people you mention whom I should "attack" rather than Daniela Leigh, that is being done at the James Randi Educational Foundation forum.  By some very capable people, I might add, who also are so inconsiderate as to insist on evidence.

'Luthon64
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