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Expropriation of land without compensation.

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2018, 11:31:37 AM »

Quote from: BoogieMonster
But, this is where the ANC is going to get a whole lot of the house (esp the EFF) on board to help them push constitutional changes.

The EFF will support it. But will the entire ANC? Especially if the opposition can force a secret ballot? They may or may not get the two thirds they need.


By they way... Called it. Cheesy
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Mefiante
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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2018, 12:16:11 PM »

This crazy mess just wouldn’t be complete without someone calling on God to come sort it all out, in this case via a uniquely peculiar mix of free enterprise, socialism, communism, and fascism.

'Luthon64
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brianvds
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2018, 12:34:32 PM »

Right now there's a thread on Reddit where citizens of the UK seem to near-unanimously think that ex-europeans from SA should be allowed to go back and be given asylum. For various reasons... Their resistance against Muslim immigration is much stronger than against that of people of European descent. Good old tribalism or a preference for contributing members of society? Racism? You decide.

When it comes to actually taking in four million refugees, only a small proportion of whom are actually scientists, doctors and engineers, they'll sing another tune.

We'll probably end our days in a refugee camp in Mozambique, like so many Palestinians...
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brianvds
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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2018, 12:37:17 PM »

Quote from: BoogieMonster
But, this is where the ANC is going to get a whole lot of the house (esp the EFF) on board to help them push constitutional changes.

The EFF will support it. But will the entire ANC? Especially if the opposition can force a secret ballot? They may or may not get the two thirds they need.


By they way... Called it. Cheesy

It looks like we are soon going to have a whole lot of stuggling farmers on hand. Now may be the time to become an agricultural consultant. :-)

And I'm semi-serious. Apparently, in the midst of the mayhem that ensued in Zim after the land grabs, there were a whole bunch of white folks who lived the high life, simply because they were the last ones left who could provide the services the government could not. This is wha these naive Marxists simply can't get through their thick skulls: the reality is that we live in a knowledge economy, and you cannot legislate reality out of existence.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2018, 13:11:16 PM »

Amidst all the largely prejudiced rhetoric about historical injustices and original land ownership, there’s something important that’s gotten lost in this feverish furore, and that’s the ANC’s main motivation for changing its tune about the land issue.  The party’s sudden support for the “without compensation” element is a very recent change.  The party has always championed property rights in the past, and consistently been adamant that in no circumstances will it ever allow its policies to be dictated by any non-ANC person, organisation, or group.  And yet, the ANC has reversed its position on property rights and allowed the EFF to set what is sure to become a core ANC tenet.

So, why the change?  My guess would be that the 2016 LGE results were more of a wake-up call for the party than it will openly admit.  The EFF garnered support primarily due to its vocal stance on the land issue, while many ANC voters simply chose not to vote.  The ANC, not being moribundly stupid, realised that it needs to reinvigorate its electorate—and what better way to do so than by hopping onto the “landwagon” (so to speak)?  In other words, for the ANC the issue has more to do with votes than with restitution where it would rather that the country slides into poverty and ruin than lose more of its support.  It’s easy to sell the restitution lie to the people because that’s what they want to hear.  And, moreover, the governing elite that pushes through such a potentially ruinous change needn’t be overly concerned about the consequences because its members can rest comfortably in the near-certainty that they will not be overly inconvenienced whichever way things play out.

If my suspicions are correct, the upshot would be that the ANC is simply not playing straight with SA on this issue.

'Luthon64
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2018, 13:11:44 PM »

This crazy mess just wouldn’t be complete without someone calling on God to come sort it all out, in this case via a uniquely peculiar mix of free enterprise, socialism, communism, and fascism.

Quote from: Linked Article
We need to look for solutions that bridge the gaps between us [inserts religion]

Yeah. No, religion can only make it worse.
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brianvds
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« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2018, 17:08:36 PM »

I think Mefiante's analysis makes a good point.

The thing is, expropriating land is not as simple as changing the constitution. There is also a practical component involved.

Suppose the constitution is now changed, and they take my (hypothetical) farm. Well, first thing I stop paying the salaries of the hundred workers who work for me. Er, used to work for me, seeing as it is no longer my farm. Secondly I stop paying any and all debts, including the farm itself, assuming it is not yet paid for. Thirdly, I don't move out of my house, because while they can take my land, other parts of the constitution guarantee me a roof over my head: nowadays you cannot even kick non-paying renters out of your property. And then, the very next day, I go get me a social grant, seeing as I am now without income.

Multiply this by twenty thousand farmers. I have a feeling Ramaphosa knows this. Perhaps his plan is to change the constitution and then just do nothing further. But if they do go ahead, four million white citizens will suddenly have a very good case to be officially classified as refugees. Hello, Canada, Australia, England, America, etc. etc.
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Spike
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« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2018, 18:02:54 PM »

Perhaps his plan is to change the constitution and then just do nothing further. But if they do go ahead, four million white citizens will suddenly have a very good case to be officially classified as refugees. Hello, Canada, Australia, England, America, etc. etc.
Interesting point.  Btw, does anyone care to look at pics of my flourishing veg garden?
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2018, 20:55:05 PM »

Perhaps his plan is to change the constitution and then just do nothing further. But if they do go ahead, four million white citizens will suddenly have a very good case to be officially classified as refugees. Hello, Canada, Australia, England, America, etc. etc.
Interesting point.

I'm getting this feint suspicion my last comment on page 1 has been missed?

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brianvds
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« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2018, 05:58:01 AM »

Perhaps his plan is to change the constitution and then just do nothing further. But if they do go ahead, four million white citizens will suddenly have a very good case to be officially classified as refugees. Hello, Canada, Australia, England, America, etc. etc.
Interesting point.  Btw, does anyone care to look at pics of my flourishing veg garden?

Now is a bad time to have a vegetable garden. It might get classified as agricultural land and expropriated. :-)
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brianvds
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« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2018, 06:01:17 AM »

Perhaps his plan is to change the constitution and then just do nothing further. But if they do go ahead, four million white citizens will suddenly have a very good case to be officially classified as refugees. Hello, Canada, Australia, England, America, etc. etc.
Interesting point.

I'm getting this feint suspicion my last comment on page 1 has been missed?

Not sure what you mean?

I find it kind of funny to see how the very people who spent decades waving placards against apartheid have now suddenly started kind of supporting it. :-)

But I think even if they do change the constitution, which now seems likely, the panic is probably still premature.
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Spike
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« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2018, 07:26:34 AM »

Perhaps his plan is to change the constitution and then just do nothing further. But if they do go ahead, four million white citizens will suddenly have a very good case to be officially classified as refugees. Hello, Canada, Australia, England, America, etc. etc.
Interesting point.

I'm getting this feint suspicion my last comment on page 1 has been missed?


If this was directed at me, no, I did not miss the comment, and I am very aware of the nationalism backlash in both Europe and the US. As I stated before, culture will out, and the world is not ready for a global one-nation state. I can certainly see that confiscating the property of a minority ethnic group may cause that group to be classified as refugees.

In the meanwhile, I'm learning to grow my own food because it's always a good idea not to be totally dependent on a steadily worsening economic system. And because I love gardening.
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brianvds
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« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2018, 08:13:25 AM »

Various articles in the media:

Ramaphosa frantically back-pedals (alas, too late now):

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/ramaphosa-land-motion-no-reason-to-panic-or-beat-the-war-drum-20180301

A fairly good article, summing up some of the issues, and explaining policies:

https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/land-expropriation-without-compensation-what-you-need-to-know-20180228

The EFF's policy, insane as it is may be, is actually probably a better one than just handing out land to political cronies, Zim-style. But what will it mean in actual practice? So you're a big commercial farmer, and now your farm belongs to the state. In practice, it may well mean that everything just goes on as it always had, seeing as there is no one else who can manage the farm. But it may also mean you stop paying salaries and debts (that is now the government's problem). Result: everything collapses, overnight.

As the article also points out, the ANC does not in fact have any kind of clear or coherent policy on this issue at all. This is likely partly because the ANC is a big umbrella, sheltering everyone from hardline communists to capitalists. It may also be because, in the back of its collective mind, the ANC knows full well that expropriation will not solve anything, and therefore it is used as an issue about which you can make populist noises but never actually do anything. (Though as we have seen, populist noises are dangerous).

Lastly, an article pointing out the elephant in the constitutional committee room: the vast bulk of South Africa's people do not want land in the first place:

https://www.news24.com/Columnists/GuestColumn/pressing-hunger-for-land-the-stats-show-something-different-20180301

The entire thing is a political game, designed to shut up a relatively small number of very noisy fantasists.
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Spike
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« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2018, 09:48:01 AM »

I am very aware of the nationalism backlash in both Europe and the US. As I stated before, culture will out, and the world is not ready for a global one-nation state.
I find it kind of funny to see how the very people who spent decades waving placards against apartheid have now suddenly started kind of supporting it. :-)
Perhaps not quite supporting it, but yes, the light of frenzied fanaticism has been fading from eyes. It's time to pay attention to the finer points of equal rights. It is entirely possible to be proud of yourself/heritage and to insist on equal equal rights without being a racist. If you insist on free speech, you have to tolerate ANN7 unless they actually spew hate speech ... and so on.
I'll admit to schadenfreude
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2018, 03:10:39 AM »

The EFF's policy, insane as it is may be, is actually probably a better one than just handing out land to political cronies, Zim-style. But what will it mean in actual practice?  So you're a big commercial farmer, and now your farm belongs to the state. In practice, it may well mean that everything just goes on as it always had, seeing as there is no one else who can manage the farm.

How do you invest in improving an immovable asset if you can lose it at any time? Moreover this simply means instead of being able to own something, black people will now also own nothing. Moreover, good intentions can be undone very quickly as political expediencies change. Business can only thrive in a climate where you have certain degrees of certainty.

Quote
But it may also mean you stop paying salaries and debts (that is now the government's problem). Result: everything collapses, overnight.

I do expect our banks to have an egg or two to lay over this cause they stand to lose billions upon billions.

Quote
As the article also points out, the ANC does not in fact have any kind of clear or coherent policy on this issue at all. This is likely partly because the ANC is a big umbrella, sheltering everyone from hardline communists to capitalists.

Moreover, politicians in general in this country seem to live in a fairy lala-land. They are great at crafting policies along the lines of "We need to make cake and to eat it too, but without losing the ingredients or using electricity for the oven." They rarely achieve these infantile ideas, and often "work" in the diametrically opposite direction in reality. (Lookin' at you NDP)

What Rhamaphosa suggests sounds to me very much like practical impossibilities. Confidence will suffer and production will not go up. To the contrary.

Quote
The entire thing is a political game, designed to shut up a relatively small number of very noisy fantasists.

This is where I think a lot of us live in a big 'ol bubble. I think this is actually a massively popular issue. Hell, it's always been a big part of the EFF's platform and they came out of nowhere and scored lots of seats in the house riding policies just like this. The *ANC* is threatened by how many votes this can cost them. That says a lot.
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