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Gun control

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cr1t
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cr1t
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2013, 10:18:43 AM »


I know it's the Daily Mail--a newspaper from the lowest sewer--but even so I'd expect them to understand that actors are pretending to be somebody else when they play a role; there is no reason to expect their values to be identical to those of the characters they portray.


No, but if you make your money from movies glorifying gun violence it's a little bit funny calling for gun control.
In any case funny video.
 

So if an actor lands a role as a rapist, he must be in favour of rape?  Or funny for him to take a stand against it?

Sam Harris has weighed in with his, as usual, sensible opinions.


Well it might be hard to imagine a movie where a movie glorifies rape. But if said actor did play in said hypethetical movie.
And then did an anti rape add. I'd still think they a bit full of shit.

The difference is how the subject matter gets handled in the movie. If you watch the mock add one actor says after firing a rifle "Wow I can see why people like this". Now the clips are out of context I admit. And I really just posted it because the juxtaposition of said actor firing gun and then calling for gun control is funny.

I did not read all of Harris Blog.

But this issue is complicated. And there is no easy answers.

But I will say this I do believe that.
A. If you want to own a gun, you should be vetted as strongly as possible.
B. Part of that obligation should be regular training and practice (As Sam himself does)
C. Owner ship of semi automatic rifles should be looked at. (He makes a point that a riffle man in a building can do a lot of damage, and yes but scale between semi automatic and manual loading will be 10 times worse)

But these are all ideas around american problems.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2013, 10:01:27 AM »

The furore prompted by the Obama administration’s proposal to enact gun controls in the US, by executive order if necessary, is causing a big stir — see here, here, here and here.  (Alex Jones is a paranoid conspiracy nut but that’s not really relevant to these articles.)

If nothing else, the whole thing illustrates how deeply the US gun culture is engrained in their national psyche.

'Luthon64
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Brian
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« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2013, 18:24:44 PM »

This noon (high noon) 3 guys well dressed, all rock up at our door looking for ducks (nothing strange in that) but both my wife and I get suspicious: she goes to our back door (which is a barn style half door that I made from sleepers) to speak with them and I go to the bedroom and haul out my 38 Special. I lurk in the back ground while she answers the one guy's questions that were clearly designed to get her out of the house to buy and show the ducks: after about 10 minutes the discussion comes to an end and the one guy whips out a gun and lunges to attack her:  she slams the upper door (solid) in his face and screams: I am standing about 10m inside the house and run to the front door (only 2m from the back door....don't ask! also made of solid sleeper wood and fire off 5 shots  to the rapidly retreating thugs who shoot back...we all miss horribly. (what we found out later was that one was holding a staff member to gunpoint as well out of our sight at that stage)
Now if I had no gun I would be dead and who knows what would have befallen my wife. It is very beautiful to argue for a gun free society, but that's living in a dreamworld...as unfortunate as that may seem.
The cops wanted (they were excellent by the way)to know why I missed and advised me to go for gun range practise!!!!
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brianvds
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« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2013, 20:54:37 PM »

I go to the bedroom and haul out my 38 Special.

It seems to me the 38 Special shouldn't be in the bedroom or in a safe. It should be on you at all times, ready for use, otherwise it is of limited value. And the cop is right: train yourself up with it, so you can handle it like a Wild West law man. Otherwise the very fact that you own it just turns you into a target, and you end up getting shot with your own gun.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2013, 23:25:51 PM »

Horrors. Very glad your family survived it, obviously, but how did you become suspicious of the trio? That must have been the pivotal moment!

Rigil
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Brian
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« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2013, 08:36:22 AM »

you're right vds: but I detest these okes who stroll around with a gun poking out of a massive holster. I actually have an ankle holster that I would wear with long trousers but hauling out of the bedroom as I said was one minute:
We have become somewhat sensitive to types: type: poor looking for a job....usually genuine; these guys well dressed but no vehicle looked suspicious to us then asked questions that seemed contrived. If they had asked for a box of beer, I would probably have walked out blithely to fetch one and got shot! No more sales off the premises!
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Faerie
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« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2013, 17:59:13 PM »

Bloody hell Brian, I'm really thankful you guys are all right.  Do you have security gates on the outside doors? Sounds like she was in a pretty vulnerable situation, what if you werent home for some reason?

Damn, its crappy having to live like this, my house is being fitted with maxidoor security right through this coming week, windows, the patio, doors the whole galoot, its like being a canary in a cage. Add to that the security company, the spot lights in the garden and the next thing will be electric fencing (when the lotto comes in). Its actually friggin rediculous.
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cr1t
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cr1t
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2013, 08:43:25 AM »

Now if I had no gun I would be dead and who knows what would have befallen my wife. It is very beautiful to argue for a gun free society, but that's living in a dreamworld...as unfortunate as that may seem.
The cops wanted (they were excellent by the way)to know why I missed and advised me to go for gun range practise!!!!

I'm very happy you and your family are all right. My Uncle got shot over December he was very lucky and nothing to important got hurt, it is crazy times we live in.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2013, 09:52:42 AM »

you're right vds: but I detest these okes who stroll around with a gun poking out of a massive holster. I actually have an ankle holster that I would wear with long trousers

A known person to me got caught up in a bank heist carrying on his ankle. They did a quick check on guys for guns but missed his ankle holster. Some dudes started assaulting him which ended in a gunfight with him killing most of the heisters (was a spooky-type in a previous life). Just a story, take from it what you will...

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but hauling out of the bedroom as I said was one minute:

That being said, I also know a person who believes his piece should always be on him or in arms reach, because you never know when it'll hit the fan. And it has.... so he lives by it. I have to give it to him he's super careful with kids around, etc. It takes a responsible adult.
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Hermes
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« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2013, 17:56:20 PM »

SAFETY TIP FOR 2013:

   I've cancelled my armed response,torn out my alarm system & de-registered from the Neighbourhood Watch.

     I've got 4 Vierkleur flags raised in my grounds, one at each corner and the AWB flag in the  centre of the garden,

     a Blue Bulls flag draped in the window,

      "God loves the AWB" sticker on my cars, and

     my sound system alternately plays the old SA Anthem and "De La Rey" at full volume.

     The local police, the Dept of Home Affairs and the Hawks are all watching my house 24/7.

     I've never felt safer!
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2013, 08:44:23 AM »

And then these types of tragedy as powerful arguments for even stricter control.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 09:02:02 AM by Rigil Kent » Logged
BoogieMonster
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« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2013, 09:38:47 AM »

I'm curious as to what type of control you think would've averted this?
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2013, 11:13:26 AM »

Simply this: Since we cannot make the dodgy assumption that all licensed gun owners and their family members who share the same house are fully competent and rational gun users, accidental killings are largely a statistical byproduct of allowing gun ownership at all. Therefore, any additional restriction that reduces the amount of legally owned firearms will lower accidental killings.

So what is the acceptable accidental death : successful self defense rate? Beats me, but all I'm saying is that accidental death makes a pretty formidable argument when it comes to advocating stricter gun control.

Rigil
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2013, 11:52:58 AM »

The state already requires you to do a gun competency and psych evaluation. He was presumably using a legal hand-gun with a limited ammo capacity.... and even if he was using a rifle the type of gun had very little to do with this accident. This is why I wonder what additional restrictions, specifically you have in mind.

As I see it your contention is then solely that if less people had guns due to arbitrary restrictions, by some stroke of chance Oscar might not have qualified (can't imaginy why...), and hence wouldn't have shot his girlfriend.

Isn't the necessary conclusion to this logic a complete banning of guns?

How is this different to a case for preventing more people from getting cars because many people die in car accidents? Sure, you could legislate even more, have arbitrarily strict drivers license requirements to artificially deny people the right to a car. But the laws are already pretty strict (we're now down to essentially 0 drinks to be over the limit) but still lots of people ignore those laws and get away with it and cause deaths. So the problem is enforcement.

In this case, if enforcement of existing laws was really that good Oscar wouldn't have assumed a deadly situation the moment he heard movement in his house... he'd be living in a safe society where farm killings are rare enough not to warrant a well known designation.

Let's say he didn't have a gun but feared for his life on hearing movement in the house anyway because "farm knifings" had become prevalent. He would presumably have had a bat, a knife, plank of wood with a nail in it.... or something else to defend himself with, and in the dark could easily have made the same mistake with one of those.

Yeah I guess technically it wouldn't be "a gun death" but does that really matter? His intent would be the same: kill the intruder or be killed.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2013, 12:54:35 PM »

As I see it your contention is then solely that if less people had guns due to arbitrary restrictions, by some stroke of chance Oscar might not have qualified (can't imaginy why...), and hence wouldn't have shot his girlfriend.
It's obviously impossible to make any claims as to what would have prevented Oscar from (at this stage reportedly) shooting his girlfriend due to mistaken identity. Oscar's is just another story of many similar ones that seem to hit the news occasionally. So no, I don't know what would have prevented this specific tragedy, but I'll be willing to bet that a gun-free society will have zero incidences of firearm accidents.

How is this different to a case for preventing more people from getting cars because many people die in car accidents?

Erm, utility? To most people, owning a vehicle of some description is infinitely more important as an aid to put bread on the table, and survival in general, than a gun could ever hope to be. In short, a firearm - with the possible exception of hunting rifles - is of much, much less use to Joe Soap than cars and motorbikes. I've driven or ridden something almost every day of my adult life, but - knock on wood - chances are that I will never have to shoot anyone in self defense. In this sense a gun is clearly a luxury item, and only indispensable under very specific, pretty unlikely circumstances.

The risk of fatal accidents due to dangerous items of very high utility is more justified than the risk of death due to dangerous items with an almost hypothetical utility.

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Isn't the necessary conclusion to this logic a complete banning of guns?
You know, I guess it is. Just as much as some of the pro-gun lobbies' arguments should logically result in free for all firearms, available otc, no questions asked.

Rigil
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 16:42:01 PM by Rigil Kent » Logged
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