South Africa Flag logo

South African Skeptics

November 20, 2019, 08:41:50 AM
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
Go to mobile page.
News: Please read the forum rules before posting.
   
   Skeptic Forum Board Index   Help Forum Rules Search GoogleTagged Login Register Chat Blogroll  
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic:

Gun control

 (Read 11305 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
BoogieMonster
NP complete
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +19/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 3120



« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2013, 13:36:23 PM »

I'll be willing to bet that a gun-free society will have zero incidences of firearm accidents.


True, if such a thing were possible in real life... But that doesn't address the other side-effects that would stem from such a move. The question is what other types of unwanted effects would increase. I've heard claims that in Australia, "post gun ban" gun violence did in fact go down. But other types of violence increased to compensate, and if I recall correctly, surpassed the previous levels of total violence.

I have to conjecture that gangs of boys in the UK going around randomly beating people to an inch of their life on the street could also be one such side effect.

Quote
Erm, utility? To most people, owning a vehicle of some description is infinitely more important as and aid to put bread on the table, and survival in general, than a gun could ever hope to be.


Okay, it's just an analogy, let's use skydiving instead: 99.9% of people will never skydive. But a small minority do, and of them a small minority die in accidents. Should we ban skydiving if that happens in a tiny percentage of cases?

Quote
The risk of fatal accidents due to dangerous items of very high utility is more justified than the risk of death due to dangerous items with an almost hypothetical utility.


As one of the world's most murderous countries, if the case can be made anywhere, it would be here. For us it's far from hypothetical.

Quote
Quote
Isn't the necessary conclusion to this logic a complete banning of guns?

You know, I guess it is. Just as much as some of the pro-gun lobbies' arguments should logically result in free for all firearms, available otc, no questions asked.


That's not what I'm angling at at all. Much like I don't think everyone should be allowed to drive without training and meeting some criteria (like good eyesight). You said there needs to be "stricter" control, but you don't seem sure what exactly that would entail, and to me it seemed "stricter" was a euphamism for "prohibition".
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 14:01:11 PM by BoogieMonster » Logged
Majin
Jr. Member
**

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 78



« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2013, 13:38:49 PM »

[
Quote
friend due to mistaken identity. Oscar's is just another story of many similar ones that seem to hit the news occasionally. So no, I don't know what would have prevented this specific tragedy, but I'll be willing to bet that a gun-free society will have zero incidences of firearm accidents.

Yes it might have zero incidence with firearm accidents. But is it justified if other innocent people who can't defend themselves get killed by criminals who don't abide the laws of gun control? I don't think so.

And I am sure if your live was threatened you would use any means possible to defend your self.
If the criminals have guns it doesn't help to threaten them with a baseball bat.

If it was possible to take away guns completely it would be great, but unfortunately it's not possible.
Logged
cr1t
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +4/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 544



cr1t
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2013, 13:40:24 PM »

I think it was Chris Rock that said, Give everybody a gun, but make bullets cost a $1000, that way when you shoot
somebody you are very positive you want them dead.
Logged
Rigil Kent
Clotting Factor
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +19/-3
Offline Offline

Posts: 2463


Three men make a tiger.


« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2013, 16:03:08 PM »

You said there needs to be "stricter" control
No, I don't think that I did. I said that accidental death makes a good case for stricter control. I then said that any new regulation that will reduce guns, will cause a drop in accidents ... purely because of probability. (Personally I don't care if sane people walk around armed to the teeth if it pleases them to do so.)

Okay, it's just an analogy, let's use skydiving instead
Skydivers typically only wipe themselves out in an accident. The analogy will be valid if gun owners can be counted on to do the same.

But is it justified if other innocent people who can't defend themselves get killed by criminals who don't abide the laws of gun control? I don't think so.

Acknowledged. In fact, if I may be so vain as to quote myself:
So what is the acceptable accidental death : successful self defense rate? Beats me...

Rigil
Logged
BoogieMonster
NP complete
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +19/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 3120



« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2013, 17:02:53 PM »

You said there needs to be "stricter" control
No, I don't think that I did. I said that accidental death makes a good case for stricter control.

If you believe there is good case, then you do imply that current restrictions are not to your liking. Otherwise you would not believe it's a good case.

Quote
Skydivers typically only wipe themselves out in an accident.

Gun owners typically don't shoot their spouses. And there is no guarantee a skydiver will only hurt himself.

EDIT: Wow, force of habit, NOTHING TO SEE HERE, MOVE ALONG!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 17:32:55 PM by BoogieMonster » Logged
Rigil Kent
Clotting Factor
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +19/-3
Offline Offline

Posts: 2463


Three men make a tiger.


« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2013, 17:52:19 PM »

If you believe there is good case, then you do imply that current restrictions are not to your liking. Otherwise you would not believe it's a good case.

I can't say that I always see things in such an absolute fashion. There are good cases to be made for several things that we don't necessarily subscribe to. There are sound arguments for communism, for not riding motorbikes, for not smoking or not eating pork rind. There are good reasons for flossing regularly, saving as much money as possible and not marrying. But also, there are equally attractive reasons to just go ahead and do the complete opposite!

(I think if we could get skydivers to plummet into only the illegal firearm owners, much of the problem would be solved. Wink)

Ronnie
Logged
brianvds
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +13/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 1860



WWW
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2013, 19:26:24 PM »

As I see it your contention is then solely that if less people had guns due to arbitrary restrictions, by some stroke of chance Oscar might not have qualified (can't imaginy why...), and hence wouldn't have shot his girlfriend.

Well, obviously, if she ALSO had a gun she could have defended herself and they would both be alive now.  Evil
Logged
BoogieMonster
NP complete
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +19/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 3120



« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2013, 20:48:27 PM »

I can't say that I always see things in such an absolute fashion.


Fair, I don't either. It's one of the reasons I have a problem with gun control: reality (admittedly, as I see it) conflicting with theory.

Just like communism, etc, etc...

Quote
Ronnie


I KNEW it, I AM psychic! Stand amazed mortals!

Thanks, by the way, all of you, every single one: This is the only place I know that I can come and have an intelligent discussion without someone getting all hurt and personal about it. It's a special thing. Without it the world would be that much more alone.
Logged
cr1t
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +4/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 544



cr1t
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2013, 08:30:38 AM »


Okay, it's just an analogy, let's use skydiving instead: 99.9% of people will never skydive. But a small minority do, and of them a small minority die in accidents. Should we ban skydiving if that happens in a tiny percentage of cases?


I'm sorry this is a False Analogy, Since sky diving and owning a gun or car has nothing to do with each other.

What is analogies to owning a gun, might be stuff like canons, explosives, we don't allow just anybody to own those things
because of the danger it poses.
Logged
Tweefo
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +10/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 1546



WWW
« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2013, 16:52:14 PM »

 Grin
Logged
Tweefo
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +10/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 1546



WWW
« Reply #85 on: March 07, 2013, 11:04:07 AM »

Why gun control is a good idea for the criminals as well. Tongue

Quote
Crime is Slate’s crime blog. Like us on Facebook, and follow us on Twitter @slatecrime.

A reader passes along the sad, instructive story of Genaro Hernandez Mendoza, an Oregon man who met his untimely end late last week. The 19-year-old Mendoza broke into a farmhouse in Independence, Ore., and came away with a pretty good haul, including a truck, a shotgun, and a rifle. Unfortunately, the house was located on a bumpy road, and as Mendoza drove away in the stolen truck, the rifle was jostled and went off. Even more unfortunately, the barrel was pointing straight at Mendoza. Police found his body hours later. The truck’s engine was still running.

Everyone loves a crime story with a Twilight Zone-style ironic twist ending. (“And the Cookie Factory Bandit eluded the police only to be defeated by a more powerful foe: indigestion.”) But Mendoza’s death is mostly just sad. People don’t generally turn to crime if they excel at a lot of other things. This man’s demise is a tale of desperation meeting incompetence, with a death that reads as a punchline.

As with anything else, there’s a learning curve for crime. Aspiring yeggs, take note: Crime is not as easy as it looks in the movies. Wear gloves. Plan an escape route. And don’t point a rifle at your head when you’re driving a getaway car on a bumpy road. The life you save may be your own.
Logged
Hermes
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +18/-2
Offline Offline

Posts: 1137



« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2013, 13:37:03 PM »

Why gun control is a good idea for the criminals as well. Tongue

Quote
Crime is Slate’s crime blog. Like us on Facebook, and follow us on Twitter @slatecrime.

A reader passes along the sad, instructive story of Genaro Hernandez Mendoza, an Oregon man who met his untimely end late last week. The 19-year-old Mendoza broke into a farmhouse in Independence, Ore., and came away with a pretty good haul, including a truck, a shotgun, and a rifle. Unfortunately, the house was located on a bumpy road, and as Mendoza drove away in the stolen truck, the rifle was jostled and went off. Even more unfortunately, the barrel was pointing straight at Mendoza. Police found his body hours later. The truck’s engine was still running.

Everyone loves a crime story with a Twilight Zone-style ironic twist ending. (“And the Cookie Factory Bandit eluded the police only to be defeated by a more powerful foe: indigestion.”) But Mendoza’s death is mostly just sad. People don’t generally turn to crime if they excel at a lot of other things. This man’s demise is a tale of desperation meeting incompetence, with a death that reads as a punchline.

As with anything else, there’s a learning curve for crime. Aspiring yeggs, take note: Crime is not as easy as it looks in the movies. Wear gloves. Plan an escape route. And don’t point a rifle at your head when you’re driving a getaway car on a bumpy road. The life you save may be your own.

So, it was the farmer that caught Mendoza red-handed and shot him, right?
Logged
Tweefo
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +10/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 1546



WWW
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2013, 21:00:45 PM »

Old topic but how do Joburg or Cape Town compare to this? http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/07/08/fourth_of_july_weekend_in_chicago_ends_with_gunfire_74_wounded_and_12_dead.html
Logged
cr1t
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +4/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 544



cr1t
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2013, 00:03:13 AM »



Well on a good weekend we can hit 44
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/44-murders-in-one-bloody-cape-weekend-1.1540425#.Uds2Wvk3Aj8

Interestingly 29 was by stabbing alone
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]   Go Up
  Print  


 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
Page created in 0.795 seconds with 23 sceptic queries.
Google visited last this page November 04, 2018, 19:02:33 PM
Privacy Policy