It's irksome, but I'll do it... :-)



I agree: I do not have a problem with killing and eating animals as such, only with current practices in much of the industry. And yes, many vegans display signs of being cult members, blissfully out of touch with all reality. I have even seen them argue that prehistoric people did not eat meat, and thus it is "unnatural."


True, but considering that much of the plant food is produced specifically to be fed to animals, the slaughter of wild animals can be reduced if we don't use animal products.


And in the process they achieve little more than alienating people who might otherwise have listened to them. I think a lot of it is just virtue signalling. I don't think they actually genuinely want everyone to become vegan, because then they wouldn't be special anymore.


As far as I know it is possible to remain healthy on a vegan diet, but some supplements need to be taken, and it has to be a varied, healthy diet: you cannot simply stop eating meat and eat breakfast cereal instead. Which is apparently what some of them do. Even worse, they sometimes insist on feeding their babies vegan diets, thereby killing them.

But just as eating meat does not automatically need to imply unethical farming, so veganism does not need to imply being part of the religious vegan cult. I actually saw an article the other day in which a vegan implores his fellow vegans to stop being so judgemental and fanatic. And for meat eaters to consider cutting down rather than cutting out.

As for me, I am increasingly uncomfortable with the way in which animal products are produced. But my current arrangement with my landlady includes meals, and they are not vegetarians, so the whole issue is kind of moot. I cannot afford not to make use of the deal. My suggested compromise position: cut out products derived from mammals, seeing as they are our closest relatives, and the more intelligent animals.

Our entire attitude to animals is actually thoroughly schizophrenic and irrational. I think I have related the story here: on holiday in Mozambique, my sister in law finds a guy burying a little dog alive. She went absolutely ballistic. And yet, she has no problem munching on a juicy steak, produced in a manner actually not much different at all from the way in which the little dog was being tortured. And derived from an animal with a mind not much different from that of the dog either.

I feel the same bemusement when I see people going apeshit over yet another rhino poaching. On one recent Facebook post I even saw the dead rhino fetus (a pregnant rhino was poached) referred to as "an innocent little baby." And of course, everyone gets emotional and suggests we string poachers up in the nearest tree. But almost all of these irate people are enthusiastic meat eaters, and never spare a thought for the suffering their steaks go through before ending up on the plate. It simply doesn't make any sense.

Upon reflection, it appears to me that our relationship with animals is tribal. That is to say, it similar to the relationship most humans had with other humans for most of history: the basic rules of morality ("do unto others" etc.) counted only for your own tribe; everyone else was fair game for exploitation, enslavement or genocide. Today, this is how we deal with animals: some species or individual animals are declared part of our tribe; the rest we can freely exploit. Rhinos are our tribe, and thus we get emotional when one is slaughtered; cattle are not, and thus we can freely eat them. Similarly, poachers are not of our tribe, and thus it is okay if they are shot down like the animals they are.

Seeing as this was our attitude for most of history, there is perhaps nothing wrong with it. It would serve us well though to be honest about it. Like it or not, the vegans are probably actually more internally consistent than the rest of us.

Ahhh, the 'ol Goth creed: Come be an individual by being exactly the same as us.


Sorry, but, from what I've been seeing lately, it smacks a little of: "Socialism would work if only people did it right". Unfortunately, the videos I'm referring to are people who went DEEP into supplementation, tried every vegan diet known to man, kept trying for years, decades, etc... people who really, really did their upmost and tried to the point of nearly killing themselves and spending ludicrous amounts of money trying to figure out why they're always sick, in pain, etc... Guys who apologise profusely in their videos for abandoning their principles, etc.

These people happily delve into all the gritty details in confessions that sometimes last hours, Have a spin....



Humans have incisors and all our direct cousins are omnivores, as have we been for all living and written memory. Saying that this not true, to me is science denial plain and simple. But sure, in principle, veganism as a choice is perfectly fine. However, the way it's sold by 99.999% of it's adherents: it is religion.


You are free to try and live to that standard but I would point out that your criteria is murky to say the best. Humans have enough laughs trying to discern and act on intelligence differences BETWEEN HUMAN INDIVIDUALS.


I think so too. But I wouldn't say "Our" I'd say "their". :)


Personally I would prefer a bolt to the head over live burial. However, Dogs and cats have specifically EVOLVED to appeal to our sense of pity. She is being manipulated by 1000's of years of co-evolution.


That pesky intelligence and consciousness criteria again....


That does NOT make sense but what DOES make sense is trying to preserve biodiversity in the name of rational self interest, which does mean focussing one's efforts on the more endagered animals kicking about. I do think the human proclivity to hunt everything to the brink of extinction is our scarcity genes run amok... and they need to be rung in a little.


Yes, and as an exhibit I submit your attempt to define criteria based on how human-like an animal is (in one dimension or another).


It's almost as if it's all arbitrary and doesn't really matter.


I completely and utterly disagree. Being an animal, in the animal kingdom, humans acting exactly like any other animals do, would, and could.. is entirely consistent with our natural, and messy, evolution. It's just not a very PLEASANT way to think about things, but that's the way it always was and still is. Animals kill, but protect their own, they fight war over territory and resources. Humans are animals, in more senses than the human ego ever bears to accept.