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Physiotherapy

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benguela
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« on: October 01, 2008, 08:29:01 AM »

It really irks me that physiotehrapists who are "scientifically" trained easily succumb to the fringe therapies. And then they try give acupuncture credibility under the guise of "dry needle therapy". To my physio's credit he calls a spade a spade, he does acupuncture. I didn't let him stick those needles in me, we stuck to manipulation of the muscles and ligaments and strengthening exercises, my recoveries have always been better than the average. I attribute the success to doing the recovery exercises several times a day with the right intensity to build strength but not cause further injury.

How come they are getting away with it? Maybe I'll pop off an email to SGU as a research suggestion.








« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 22:07:04 PM by benguela » Logged
benguela
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2008, 22:04:22 PM »

"Dry needling" has now become my pet pseudo science. I updated the wikipedia page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_needling, adding a line to sow the seeds of doubt. Grin

I have asked several of my friends who have visited a physio in RSA, they say their physio uses dry needling.

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AcinonyxScepticus
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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2008, 23:17:51 PM »

Hi Benguela,

I notice the one brief moment of critical thinking that you added to the article - highlighting that the source itself concedes that it is based on studies performed with poor quality methodologies and therefore doesn't make great evidence.  I would like to think that it would stay that way because it is accurate and honest.

Unfortunately, looking at the history of the page and the "Talk" section, I have no doubt that Fyslee will undo the changes very soon.  Fyslee probably thinks that he/she owns the page and is the only person who can make valuable contributions.

I would be happy about this victory for reason if you come back here in two months and point out that I was wrong, that is if the article retains the spirit of the line that you added for those two months (without having been removed at some stage).

This is the face of the enemy; far gone into delusion and has a personal need, a crusade, to censor the "lies".

These are some of the articles that Fyslee started:
  • Chiropractic treatment techniques
  • Joint manipulation
All centred around his or her income, most likely, and so has a vested interest in suppressing criticism.  From the article on Chiropractic treatment techniques we learn that Chiropractic (the word is an adjective as well as a clumsy noun for some reason) is kind of a gateway drug to all forms of alternative "medicine".

Quote
A modern chiropractor may specialize in spinal adjustments only, or may use a wide range of methods intended to address an array of neuromusculoskeletal and general health issues.

...

Chiropractors may also use other complementary alternative methods as part of a holistic treatment approach.

What concerns sceptics about these people is their claims of "addressing general health issues" (James Randi is quite vocal about this flummery).  If they limited themselves to only claiming efficacy in treating musculo-skeletal issues then nobody would bat an eyelid.

Now that is how you piss on a parade - I'm sorry benguela, nothing personal, I'm just rather cynical today.  Undecided
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AcinonyxScepticus
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2008, 20:58:03 PM »

I would be happy about this victory for reason if you come back here in two months and point out that I was wrong, that is if the article retains the spirit of the line that you added for those two months


Unfortunately your edit was removed.  However, I'm willing to concede that I was wrong because "in spirit" the article has retained a sceptical slant ever since you edited the article.  I see that the editor who removed your quote did so while commenting about removing unnecessary quote mining - I thought that was a bit harsh.  But at the same time he removed a quote that Fyslee added from the same source.

If you're in Joburg, drop me a line and I'll buy you a drink.  I'd prefer to do so at a Sceptics in the Pub but its your choice.

James
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Wandapec
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 10:26:38 AM »

It really irks me that physiotehrapists who are "scientifically" trained easily succumb to the fringe therapies.
It also bug me. I went to a physio in the Boskruin area and went through the dry needling thing - I won't do it again. I don't remember looking at the bill, but it probably added 10%! While I was in the waiting room I noticed a whole wall of certificates of "qualification" for things like acupuncture, iridology, reiki etc. - all the ancient techniques that have "been used for thousands of years". I would like to think it is a business decision (not that I am saying that it is right), like pharmacists selling homeopathy. There is a market out there that believes such things - literally "money for nothing"! It is probably wishful thinking though to think that it was a business decision.
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benguela
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2008, 08:14:12 AM »

It also bug me. I went to a physio in the Boskruin area and went through the dry needling thing - I won't do it again.

Did you question the physio? Some physio's I questioned think dry-needling is the "scientific" "western" version of acupuncture, they don't believe in acupuncture. Yours sounds like is a deep believer in all the alternatives and wouldn't care if it's scientific or not.

My goal is to bring the "scientific" physios back to the one true path, they have strayed into the dark side.
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benguela
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« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2009, 12:24:46 PM »

hehe, skeptics are currently winning this tussle,

Dry Needling

all the woo woo was edited out with a decleration that dry needling = acupuncture. I'm sure the other side will bounce back though.


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bluegray
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« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2009, 13:05:38 PM »

That wikipedia article still reads like some woo person wrote it... Grin
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scienceteacheragain
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« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2009, 13:32:32 PM »

I agree bluegray.
I have been noticing lately the apparent increase in these type of offices.
"Median Therapy" is one which seems to be taking off.  I had to Google that to even find out what it is, and it is most certainly leaning further into the woo woo than acupuncture.
Another thing that I see (and could just be my perception) is that here in SA, otherwise highly intelligent people seem to buy into this type of thing.  When I point out that there is no good evidence that it is effective, I have found that many just say that "it works", as if it is obvious and above doubt.
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2009, 13:27:26 PM »

Hi everyone! Just joined. Funnily enough, I just went to the physio this afternoon (hence found this thread when googling what the hell she had just done to me). She realigned my neck then asked if I was scared of needles. I'm not and generally when I go to docs etc, I just let them get on with their business, cos I'm just keen to be rid of the pain or illness or whatever. If getting rid of my shoulder muscle pain meant getting poked with a needle, then I was all for it. When asked if it was a Voltaren injection or something, she said no, it's called dry needling.

She explained that the needle was inserted into the muscle knot and caused it to twitch, thus releasing the tension and getting it back to normal functioning/state. I did indeed feel the twitch/es. And it does feel better. She said the needling was a lot better than actually massaging which is more painful. One muscle spasm was deep, so she said she'd have to work it out with her hands rather than the needle, and it was damn painful.

So... I'm skeptical of all things acupuncture, but this seems to have worked. Instead of just plopping a needle in along a median or whatever they do, she stuck it straight into the knot/spasm and also worked the needle a bit - whereas, acupunture practitioners don't work the needle and only place them into median lines or whatever woo crap they call it. (IMH - and ignorant - O)

So... um, skeptical as I am, I must say the needling seems to have worked... of course, combined with massage and realigning my neck (that horrible clickcluckclack sound).

So what exactly did the dry needling do and why did it make my muscles twitch (besides the fact that if I was a muscle I would also twitch if poked with a metal needle)? Why is it considered woo? Is that cos of it's similarity to acupuncture.

The physio was very practical and certainly didn't seem new agey.
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benguela
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2009, 21:23:34 PM »

Why is it considered woo?


I have not seen any systematically reviewed study that has proven that dry needling (which I believe is acupuncture in disguise) is any better than a placebo. You have only supplied anecdotal evidence which is how homeopathy gets such a good PR, people claiming that it worked for them.

The best evidence I have seen is only suggestive,  but because the quality of the study is poor, it should not be used as a basis for treatment. Acupuncture and dry-needling for low back pain

Therefor I would not pay physio's a small fortune for some treatment that might work but is more likely to be as good as a sugar pill in the guise of an anti-inflammatory.









« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 21:42:24 PM by benguela » Logged
bluegray
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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2009, 12:29:51 PM »

Welcome to the forum MrDickens. Wink
I would also like to know how poking a needle into a muscle affects it - as you said, your body must have some reaction to it. Maybe the poke from the needle temporarily distracts from the muscle pain? Whether it makes anything better in the long run, I don't know.
She explained that the needle was inserted into the muscle knot and caused it to twitch, thus releasing the tension and getting it back to normal functioning/state. I did indeed feel the twitch/es. And it does feel better. She said the needling was a lot better than actually massaging which is more painful. One muscle spasm was deep, so she said she'd have to work it out with her hands rather than the needle, and it was damn painful.

So she used the dry needling as a replacement for massaging because it is less painful? Did she mention if it's more effective? Did she try to stick a needle into the spasm that was too deep?
So... um, skeptical as I am, I must say the needling seems to have worked... of course, combined with massage and realigning my neck (that horrible clickcluckclack sound).

Ooo, that clickclack is a another can of worms Wink
See this article at chirobase.org
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