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Ritual

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Mefiante
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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2014, 16:17:38 PM »

So as to say none of us live complete outside society. if you really did you would not be on this forum.
Right you are.  Now be so kind as to point out where anyone made that claim, either directly or by implication.

Thanks.

'Luthon64
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2014, 17:12:20 PM »

Point is I can (and do) attend these rituals, but it doesn't mean I have to find those rituals rational.
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Brian
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« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2014, 07:44:19 AM »

Even a Robinson Crusoe will perform rituals: to lure the fish at full moon; to bless the spirit of the pig as he cooks it over the fire; to cleanse himself every morning..... Grin
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cr1t
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cr1t
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2014, 08:45:31 AM »

So as to say none of us live complete outside society. if you really did you would not be on this forum.
Right you are.  Now be so kind as to point out where anyone made that claim, either directly or by implication.

Thanks.

'Luthon64

Well I got it mostly from the tone of this thread. And that last quoted text annoyed me a bit.
My point I'm trying to make rituals is as much part of the human experience as having sex.
And we all have rituals, religious or not. And none of them are more dumber or irrational that any other.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2014, 09:02:21 AM »

And that last quoted text annoyed me a bit.
Then I submit that you need to read with greater care and attention to details, specifically the meaning of the words and phrases used.  To go from “not [needing] others’ affirmations for our sense of self-worth and security” and “much less inclined to fall in line with such norms” all the way to “never celebrated there (sic) or one of there (sic) family's birthday” is quite some leap of fantasy.

Such cavalier conclusion-hopping, based on nothing more than sloppy and invalid inferences, will make me grumpy in short order, mostly because it’s not in line with any kind of sceptical mind-set.

'Luthon64
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2014, 11:27:36 AM »

And we all have rituals, religious or not. And none of them are more dumber or irrational that any other.
Half agree. Yes, we all have rituals, but they certainly ain't all sitting in the same spot on the great continuum of rationality. Your morning ritual of brushing your teeth is beneficial and rational. The ritual of lighting and blowing out birthday candles, maybe only slightly so. The ritual of imagining that you are drinking JHC's blood and eating his flesh is dubious at best. This thread is really aimed at those rituals that specifically possibly strengthens irrationality.

(Of course, whether the actual participants and overseers of superstitious ritual will agree with it's irrationality, is a different thurible of smoke. Undecided)

Rigil
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 11:45:27 AM by Rigil Kent » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2014, 11:55:11 AM »

And that last quoted text annoyed me a bit.
Then I submit that you need to read with greater care and attention to details, specifically the meaning of the words and phrases used.  To go from “not [needing] others’ affirmations for our sense of self-worth and security” and “much less inclined to fall in line with such norms” all the way to “never celebrated there (sic) or one of there (sic) family's birthday” is quite some leap of fantasy.

Such cavalier conclusion-hopping, based on nothing more than sloppy and invalid inferences, will make me grumpy in short order, mostly because it’s not in line with any kind of sceptical mind-set.

'Luthon64

I might be very wrong, because tone does not always come translate perfectly in writing.
But alas I'm then still in the dark as to what you meant by the "Those of us brave enough not to need others’ affirmations and/or participation for our sense of self-worth and security are of course much less inclined to fall in line with such norms, seeing them for the hollow follies they are" is it not the 'us vs them' narrative with 'us'being better.

Sorry that you are grumpy, and that I don't match your sceptical mind-set.
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cr1t
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« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2014, 12:10:59 PM »

they certainly ain't all sitting in the same spot on the great continuum of rationality.

This thread is really aimed at those rituals that specifically possibly strengthens irrationality.

Rigil


Point taken. And yes I guess they do strengthen the irrationality.
Rituals is a tool, what they used is not there fault.

Could you come up with, or think of a ritual, that strengthens rationality?
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2014, 12:27:01 PM »

Could you come up with, or think of a ritual, that strengthens rationality?
Good question. I can think of many rituals where the reason behind the ritual is quite rational, but I'm stumped for the moment if I have to name a ritual aimed at reinforcing rationality itself! Maybe there aren't too many of them, because by its nature, a ritual is a scripted, mechanical set of procedures which makes it unoriginal, un-creative and counter-cerebral, and I suspect all this is not very conducive to fostering rationality.

Rigil
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 14:12:26 PM by Rigil Kent » Logged
Mefiante
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In solidarity with rwenzori: Κοπρος φανεται


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« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2014, 13:17:36 PM »

But alas I'm then still in the dark as to what you meant … is it not the 'us vs them' narrative with 'us'being better.
No.  It should be obvious from the context of the post in which it occurs that it was a parenthetical remark meant to clarify that some of us aren’t especially fussed about how others view us, and that consequently we are less likely to feel the need to participate in various common rituals (or conversely, that insecure individuals are more likely to engage in such communal activities).  It is a fairly straightforward observation, and there is no value judgement expressed or implied in it.  What may have got you all muddled is that I used “brave” to describe those of us who aren’t especially concerned about how others view us, but a little thought should suffice to see that it does indeed take a bit of courage to reject a good part of common ritualistic behaviour that others eagerly engage in — just as it takes courage to reject, e.g., religion.

One ritual that strengthens rationality would be doing a newspaper’s crossword or the bridge/chess puzzles daily.  Or weekly checking of new scientific papers at one or more of the online journals.  Or a student attending regular lectures.  In fact, any routine activity that involves a little thinking rather than mere automatic repetition would qualify, including a church sermon that raises an interesting topic in an intelligent way.  This underscores Rigil’s point about rituals existing on a continuum, starting at brain-dead and extending through to intriguing.

'Luthon64
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2014, 13:29:38 PM »

One ritual that strengthens rationality would be doing a newspaper’s crossword or the bridge/chess puzzles daily.  Or weekly checking of new scientific papers at one or more of the online journals.  Or a student attending regular lectures.
Mmmm ... yes, but only by a stretch of our understanding of what a ritual is. A ritual is usually perceived as almost exactly the same every time, and as such it provides little that is new or stimulating to its participants. All of the examples that you mentioned offers a great deal of variation in content and novelty every time round.

ETA: Unless we can split it up and view the ritualistic part of attending lectures - packing in our books, starting the car, and climbing the stairs at the college - separately from the lecture itself. Then you would have a set of rituals that serves the purpose of attending a non-ritualistic event.

Rigil
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 13:47:47 PM by Rigil Kent, Reason: unless ... » Logged
Mefiante
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« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2014, 13:44:21 PM »

While it’s true that we tend to think of rituals as fixed sequences with static content, you will also find among the definitions of Ritualany practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner.”  This doesn’t specify anything about content.  An analogy would be that the format and proceedings of Catholic weddings are fixed, but the location, language and participants can vary.

'Luthon64
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2014, 13:53:37 PM »

LOL, as an aside, have you noticed that, while other forums often end up with the Hitler or Nazi analogy a-la Godwin, we in turn often end up with a link to a dictionary! Grin

I concede that some intellectual pursuits may well border on ritualistic. I mean, we are HERE again, aren't we? Tongue

Rigil
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Mefiante
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In solidarity with rwenzori: Κοπρος φανεται


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« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2014, 14:01:05 PM »

I concede that some intellectual pursuits may well border on ritualistic.
It also ignores some subtle points.  For example, the noun Lecture is sometimes accurately defined as “A means of transferring a professor’s notes to his students’ notebooks without passing through the mind of either.”  In this case, a lecture is pure ritual. Evil

'Luthon64
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2014, 14:10:15 PM »

I concede that some intellectual pursuits may well border on ritualistic.
It also ignores some subtle points.  For example, the noun Lecture is sometimes accurately defined as “A means of transferring a professor’s notes to his students’ notebooks without passing through the mind of either.”  In this case, a lecture is pure ritual. Evil

I once had a mathematical statistics prof who'se only apt job description would've been:

"Talks in other people's sleep"

I assure you, this is very literal.
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