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Should it be Confrontation all the way?

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ingwe
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« on: October 09, 2010, 22:47:22 PM »

PZ Myers is his blog "Pharyngula" reproduces a statement he made in a panel discussion at the Secular Humanism conference. My reading of this statement is his conviction that the promotion of religion, ID, creationism and all other woo needs to be confronted. The main reason for this conviction is that all of these concepts or beliefs are based on lies or facts that are not the truth.

Do you agree with him? If so how do you confront those promoting the woo?



http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/10/post_6.php
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thrift
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2010, 23:09:23 PM »

Yes I agree that we should be confronting the issue, not just because it's true but because religion does more harm in the world than good.  Us who've cottoned on should be spreading the message, engaging in debate where possible.  Sow doubt among the faithful!
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Mefiante
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2010, 23:14:11 PM »

Do you agree with him?
Yes, we do.  Every time you let pass a piece of slipshod thinking, you in effect condone it via consent by silence.  Humanity needs to sharpen up its critical faculties if we are not merely to survive but to ensure a better life for all, most especially our children.



If so how do you confront those promoting the woo?
Not directly.  The promoters’ll say literally anything to defend their BS and they are usually well-practised at it.  The best you can hope for is to engender a little doubt in the minds of those who buy into the nonsense.  Maybe that seed of doubt will take root and flower into a sturdier tree.  Sadly, people are not very good at challenging their own beliefs, so that’s the place to attack: inculcate a sense that it’s okay to be wrong and to change your views.  If enough people doubt the baloney merchants’ promises, the merchants themselves will soon run out of market.  That is, when the buyers are few, the promoters will waste their breath – and realise it, only to try a new batch of woo.

It would be good if one of the major pharmaceutical companies was to develop an anti-stupid pill, but that’s hoping for too much.

'Luthon64
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Jacques
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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2010, 00:57:25 AM »

I'm lucky enough to be at this conference at the moment, and spent some time talking to him last night, after the session with Chris Mooney, Stenger and Scott. He's quite emphatic on the point that in terms of long-term strategy, the principled defense of truth & reason is what we should be pursuing, even if that means criticising believers who are actually (on the whole) perhaps doing good work for *our* cause. The example that came up in discussion was Francis Collins, who despite his woo, is doing good work promoting evolution and stem-cell research. PZ doesn't even want to give guys like that an easy ride. I certainly agree with him - we've got no sacred ideas or people (or cows). Of course, politically, there is a legitimate debate to be had around tone, but Dawkins made a good point in the evening session that people mistake honesty for rudeness far too often, and that we should feel free to call ideas idiotic, and people ignorant, but that this is different to the gratuitous offensiveness of calling people idiots.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2010, 10:19:34 AM »

Another atheist dares to put his “radical intolerance” and “intolerant radicalism” on public display by voicing reasoned dissent.  This time it’s Jerry Coyne on how science and religion are fundamentally incompatible.  Can you hear the apologist hordes gathering to fabricate “defences” of their nonsense?

'Luthon64
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Michael Meadon
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2010, 12:01:48 PM »

Jacques Rousseau has a rather depressing account of some goings-on at the same conference: http://synapses.co.za/sadstrange-scenes-council-secular-humanism-conference/

The 'tactics debate' has become an extremely emotional one. I'm instinctively with the confrontation camp, but I'm willing to listen to tactical considerations.
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Mutton
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2010, 12:05:24 PM »

I'm not so sure.

I've never felt morally obliged to spread any message of any nature to the world outside of the circles within which I operate. Embarking on a crusade to "convert" the World to my way of thinking is a bit too much like....

Awww, nevermind!

Leading a good, honest, moral life without any divine assistance nor beliefs is my way of "confrontation".
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Brian
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« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2010, 14:06:23 PM »

Another atheist dares to put his “radical intolerance” and “intolerant radicalism” on public display by voicing reasoned dissent.  This time it’s Jerry Coyne on how science and religion are fundamentally incompatible.  Can you hear the apologist hordes gathering to fabricate “defences” of their nonsense?

'Luthon64

Here's the first  received from a family woo (she's also a homeopath  WTF!!):

Quote
Very interesting, just as science is trying to proof the truths " life is life " if you loose all your senses and still breath you are trapped, who is trapped? You, your spirit! It wants to be free and is alive! The material world can be pr...oved by science, but what about the non-material world like e-motions or energy in motion, the inner feelings. The powerstation where our energy or life force come from can be negative or positive. Fear is the origin of crime, inner feelings of neglect, un fair treatment, love-less lives are the core of crime and horror. Love is the core of creativity and growth. God says in the bible He is Love. Science or religion is not the same as faith, faith is a gift. Science and religion is dogmatic institutions trying to find the truth, following guidelines set by people. It's all a bit a much of a muchness. Who knows? Nobody knows! All I can vote for; without love, faith and hope in my life, I am pretty pathetic and prefer to leave this beautiful planet that is now in the process of destruction. Due to fear of being under the power of a higher entity, reluctance to obedience and being united as one, this spiral is taking us all down. Now I want to say if we put our spectacles on and see this truth all the other arguments or mist will disappear like mist before the sun. People prefer to differ , it's a choices, we determine our destiny with the decision we take, in faith it taps into love or without faith into fear. [\quote]
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Gogtjop
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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2010, 14:19:56 PM »

Faith is a gift?!?  Huh?

To that I say, Santa Claus you cunt, where me fucking bike!?
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2010, 14:27:36 PM »

bloody hell.  faith is a burden. given to you by your parents, and driven into your skull with the fear of eternal, painfull damnation if you dont come to the party.
us fuckers here, have at least pulled up our panties, and fought our way out of bullshit fest that is religion.  and we (who have kids), have given them a gift of freedom.
faith is crutch that gets passed down through generations, to disable the mind from fighting for yourself, as opposed to praying about it.
how many people remain in horrible jobs, abusive marraiges, etc etc, coz the bible tells em to turn the other cheek, coz they are told to 'pray' about it, coz they are made to feel inferior humans/christians, when they cant see god's plan for them.
what bollocks.

and ps, santa, where is my xbox bitch?
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Gogtjop
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« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2010, 14:36:33 PM »

Oh my, how times have changed. First it's prams now it's xboxen Smiley

Yeah, that Santa Claus sure is an arsehole, getting kids to sit on his lap. Must be catholic.
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Faerie
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2010, 14:38:48 PM »

Faith is a gift?!?  Huh?

To that I say, Santa Claus you cunt, where me fucking bike!?

Bwhahahahhaaaaa!!! OMG thats just hysterical!

Okay, so I'm a science noob, but love the stuff anyway, am reading a book by Robert Winston on the The Human Mind and how to make the most of it, moerofa interesting - and all this stuff (emotions/love and even out-of-body experiences) are induced by the brain by glands and stuffs (I'm a noob okay?). Just because we dont UNDERSTAND something, doesnt mean that it isnt understandable, just go read a bit, or google or sumfin, generally you can figure shit out. (shit GCG is rubbing off on me....)

as for "God is love".... tell me another one, cos this one's bullshit.

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Mutton
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2010, 14:42:23 PM »

Oh my, how times have changed. First it's prams now it's xboxen Smiley

Yeah, that Santa Claus sure is an arsehole, getting kids to sit on his lap. Must be catholic.

OT of course ... talking of gifts:
Q. What do you give a paedophile who already has everything?
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A. Another parish.
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GCG
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2010, 14:43:20 PM »

shit GCG is rubbing off on me....

glad to be of service....   Evil
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Mefiante
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« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2010, 15:02:52 PM »

Quote
… [W]hat about the non-material world like e-motions…
Goodness me, “e-motions” must be what only scientologists can detect.



Quote
Science and religion is dogmatic institutions trying to find the truth, following guidelines set by people. It's all a bit a much of a muchness.
Goodness me, can you separate yourself from these “dogmatic institutions” long enough to pray us a cure for Aids into existence?



Why is it that the barely literate are almost always among the first in leaping to the defence of the indefensible?  Or would that be a rhetorical question?

'Luthon64
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Gogtjop
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« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2010, 15:16:35 PM »

Another parish! Lolz
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Brian
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« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2010, 15:42:45 PM »

shame it's my niece and she's generally nice with a doctorate nogal in homeopathy but her mind is totally loopy with woo...so's her mother's.
my response took family feelings into account I think so I tread softly:
Quote
"wonderlik hoe mense glo wat hulle wil glo Sella. Dis jou reg. Ek glo nie in die spirit nie..ok nie in die sg. god waarvan jy praat nie. snaaks jy praat van spectacles (dis deur die scientists ontwikkel) om woo te sien. LOL. Wat ek gevind het is totalle verlossing van al die nonsens. dankie tog! Soos jy se it's about choices....[\quote]
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Brian
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« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2010, 15:55:08 PM »

[Goodness me, “e-motions” must be what only scientologists can detect.
Why is it that the barely literate are almost always among the first in leaping to the defence of the indefensible?  Or would that be a rhetorical question?

'Luthon64

I love that e-meter  Evil ...but think about it...it is exactly the barely literate or illiterate (aka naive)who are the most vocal and loyal supporters of woo...when churches established schools they realised this and took control of children's education ensuring that virgin minds are not cluttered with reason and logic.

Quote
I am afraid that the schools will prove the very gates of hell, unless they diligently labor in explaining the Holy Scriptures and engraving them in the heart of the youth.
Martin Luther
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Brian
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« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2010, 16:00:43 PM »

At the risk of being accused of quote mining here are some nice one's by Luther as well:
Quote
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Martin Luther[\quote]

Quote
Reason is the enemy of faith.
Martin Luther[\quote]

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Wandapec
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« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2010, 17:58:38 PM »

At the risk of not know the context of the quotes and resorting to ad hominem ....Martin Luther was a prat.
At the risk of being accused of quote mining here are some nice one's by Luther as well:
Quote
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Martin Luther[\quote]

Quote
Reason is the enemy of faith.
Martin Luther[\quote]


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Brian
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2010, 07:14:12 AM »


No argument...if you followed the thread it had to do with semi-illiterate comment by Mefiante and why churches take control of education.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2010, 08:39:40 AM »

Calling my comment “semi-illiterate,” eh!? Wink Grin Evil

'Luthon64
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Brian
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2010, 08:41:50 AM »

sorrrrry man heheh
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Brian
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2010, 08:42:33 AM »

apologies woo-man!
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Mefiante
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2010, 10:28:51 AM »

You know that it’s time to quit when the fans of various editions of god begin confronting one another over whose god gets the credit for an alleged miracle that, really, no god had any hand in.  And to think that such inordinate fruitcakes are vested with any kind of authority beyond their barely adequate potty training.

'Luthon64
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Brian
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2010, 10:41:05 AM »

I picked up an article of an atheist defending xtianity on opposing views. In my view she is fake and trying to get into the limelight...she certainly has a very poor understanding of atheism.click http://www.opposingviews.com/i/s-e-cupp-the-right-wing-atheist-who-defends-christianity
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