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The Locator Locates! (Danie Krugel)

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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2007, 13:36:41 PM »

EPISODE V - CONCLUSION

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nini g  Mar-02-2007 11:15:50
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linette, and what dit he say, can he help or not, if not what is the reason, on carte blanche he was so good, and he's invention if you want to call it like that is suposse to help for the future, why are they not using it, to find her. this is driving me insane, pta is so big, she could be enywhere, she could even be only a block from were she stays, or even another town far away, where do you look for a girl of her age, that doesnt understand why she cant go home.


Linette V  Mar-02-2007 11:19:41
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Nini, if I remember correctly, he did try to help, but because a lot of people use the same hairbrush, he could not find a hair sample of Sheldean.

And there the matter rests for now.  That last excuse about there being several users of the hairbrush is, of course, entirely bogus: there is a limited number of hairbrush users, therefore a limited number of hairs that can be forensically sorted by owner.  Easier yet, Danie could trace all of them by individual strands.  If his method actually works, one of his finds is bound to be Sheldean.

It will be interesting to see what Danie Krugel will achieve.  Solving this one should be a cinch for him if we are to trust all of the fawning adulation exhibited above.

Come, come, Danie.  The time for "uithaal en wys" is at hand, old chap.

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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2007, 14:37:58 PM »

It goes to show that people in desperate need will try anything to find a loved one, and you can't blame them for that.
What pisses me off is that people like Danie Krugel will prey on the travesty that has befallen this family. I wish that i believed in a hell so that the likes of Danie Krugel, could be sent there for a time to pay for his crimes.

My thoughts are with the family and i just hope that this will all end well for them.
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2007, 15:34:50 PM »

It goes to show that people in desperate need will try anything to find a loved one, and you can't blame them for that.
Yes, blaming people would seem a harsh thing to do, but it does raise the question why we are so quick to jettison our reasoning faculties just when we need them the most - in a charged and/or fearful situation.


What pisses me off is that people like Danie Krugel will prey on the travesty that has befallen this family. I wish that i believed in a hell so that the likes of Danie Krugel, could be sent there for a time to pay for his crimes.
Er, I think you may mean "tragedy" instead of "travesty."  Krugel certainly invites comparisons with the latter, and your sentiments are, I agree, probably justified: notice how often he is brought up as a solution, yet Sheldean is still missing.  Until he shows us all to be wrong, we must assume that Danie lives by peddling false hope via a deception that should have been exposed at birth.

For a bible-thumping moralist, Krugel sure seems to violate the big g's ban on bearing false witness quite a lot, so maybe there's still a sound clobbering in store for him with a stone tablet and a hot pitchfork. 


My thoughts are with the family and i just hope that this will all end well for them.
Ditto.

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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2007, 09:59:10 AM »

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Wilma M  Mar-06-2007 16:28:17
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Ek lees almal se kommentaar en my hart kook oor, jammer maar ek moet my mening lug ek kan nie anders nie! Ek wil die familie help waar ek kan, dit vir hulle so maklik as moontlik onder omstandighede maak, ek wil graag doen wat ek kan doen om my deel te gee en te wys hoe jammer ek is en hoe baie ek vir hulle omgee. Ek het so hard gebid vandat ek vroeg die Maandagoggend die e-pos van Vivian ontvang het, ek het ook vir Danie Krugel probeer kontak. Terloops, hoekom kon hy nie help nie? Ek het Vivian gebel om haar van hom te vertel, toe sê sy hulle weet daarvan, maar hy sal ingeroep word wanneer die polisie dit nodig ag, wat ek nou nog nie kon verstaan nie, maar ek glo hulle het hulle redes gehad. In elk geval, ek is bitter oor hierdie Engelkind. Ek het self 2 dogtertjies en ons lewe in vrees! 'n Voorstel vroeër was dat mense mekaar moet leer ken, hulle het hierdie man geken! Ons moet leer hieruit, wat moet ons leer? Dat dit orals, in jou eie huis onveilig is? Dit weet ons al!!! Dat selfs mense wat jy ken, jy nie kan vertrou nie? Wat van baba Jordan, 6 maande oud en vermoor?!!!! Jammer mense, ek is baie bitter en baie ontsteld en ek kan nie sien hoe enige iets goeds uit Sheldeane se dood gebore kan word nie, want hoeveel keer het ek nie al opskrifte gesien wat sê : GENOEG IS GENOEG, maar dit gaan net aan en aan en aan..... Jammer mense, miskien voel ek morê beter, maar nou is ek baie baie BITTER!!!!
(From the eblockwatch site linked to earlier; emphasis added.)

The tragedy of Danie Krugel's deceit realised.  I think Danie owes Sheldean's family and friends a public explanation, if not an apology.  It would be the christian thing to do, but it's probably asking too much.

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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2007, 18:15:46 PM »

Danie Krugel was at it some more a few days ago, but this time with other policemen.  I hope that they look upon him as the FBI does on psychics offering their help.  Roll Eyes
Quote
Volgens insp. Harry Nagel, polisiewoordvoerder, het die polisie na 'n lang soektog Maandag, die hulp van mnr. Danie Krugel ingeroep om te help soek na Naledi.

Hy het 'n apparaat waarmee hy mense kan opspoor. Kort nadat hy met sy apparaat 'n moontlike soekgebied aan gedui het, is Naledi se lykie skaars 1,2 km van haar ouma se huis in ’n doringbos gevind.

Note what the article does not say: that Krugel's efforts actually pinpointed the location of the missing girl's body.  The unsuspecting reader may easily infer that Danie the Diviner played a crucial part.

Thus are myths born.

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« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2007, 13:49:34 PM »

Great gibbering gobs of gormless goo!  The madness of crowds (read the comments to feel both sadness and anger) has just grown by several orders of magnitude.  Currently it is focussed on the disappearance of young Madeleine McCann from a hotel in Portugal:
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Danie Krugel is more than willing to go to Portugal immediately, but he must know if Madeleine's hair is available and if the parents and police are interested in his services which by the way is free of charge.
So, once again, Danie Krugel has a brilliant opportunity to demonstrate his claimed ability to locate missing people with a sample of their hair.

Go, Danie, go!

But don't be surprised at a last-minute glitch that prevents Danie from giving assistance (or rather, saves Krugel's bacon).  This is becoming something of a regular feature, so I'll not start baking humble pie just yet.

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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2007, 17:11:19 PM »

At this time, Madeleine McCann is still missing.  The staunch gusto with which some had put forward Danie Krugel's possible involvement in locating her seems to have died with barely a whimper.  Maybe Danie will step up to the plate of his own accord – but don't hold your breath.  I'm sure he'd have absolutely no trouble finding a sponsor to pay his fare to Portugal and the UK.  Success in tracking down the missing four-year-old would just about guarantee him everlasting fame and fortune, and since he has apparently been approached in this regard, it is very curious indeed that Danie is keeping such a low profile.  Some might think he's skulking or shirking or using avoidance and evasion ploys but perhaps it's his diary that is too full of much more pressing engagements.

Also, there's still no sign of Carte Blanche's promised follow-up programme, now several months overdue.  Nor have Krugel's promises of a great revelation materialised.  Maybe we should hire Danie to find Ruda and Derek so as to remind them.

(And sometimes I get out of bed via its underside…)

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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2007, 20:03:55 PM »

Is this bloke Danie Krugel for real?  Im asking as i would like to try and get in touch with him as i want to know if he could go to Portugal and help find Madeleine Mc Cann. Im an ex South African but my folks,sisters and brothers still live in SA. Im here in the Uk so can anyone help me out here?  Thanks
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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2007, 11:35:24 AM »

Is this bloke Danie Krugel for real?  Im asking as i would like to try and get in touch with him as i want to know if he could go to Portugal and help find Madeleine Mc Cann. Im an ex South African but my folks,sisters and brothers still live in SA. Im here in the Uk so can anyone help me out here?  Thanks
Yes, the man definitely exists.  He works as a glorified rent-a-cop at the Free State Central University of Technology (CUT) in Bloemfontein.  You can find his contact information here:
Quote from: CUT staff directory
Name: KRUGEL, D.R. (Mnr)
Email:  dkrugel@cut.ac.za
Dept:   PROTECTION SERVICES
Tel.:     +27 51 507 3609
Fax.:    +27 51 507 3018


Pictures of the man can be seen here, here, here and here.

The question you need to ask yourself, however, is whether what Krugel claims is in any way likely to be true.  Certainly, his claims are highly improbable from a scientific point of view because they seem to violate our understanding of the world: how can DNA (or hair) possibly keep track of its source, even in principle?  Krugel refuses to say on what basis this is supposed to work.  He says it is, "Science, science, science!" but won't be more specific than that.  What is known is that Krugel is an ex-policeman who has as a collaborator a private investigator called Leon Rossouw who specialises in tracking people via their cellphones and the cell network.

But, please, feel free to invite Krugel to find Madeleine McCann, something he has been challenged to do at least twice.  If you're really lucky, you'll even get a reply from Krugel.  But before you do, you might want to read the posts in this thread carefully and follow the links where such have been provided.

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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2007, 12:18:31 PM »

Did anyone catch Carte Blanche last night? Are you as baffled as I am?

I only caught the end (looking at the transcript I didn't miss much), but it seems they got a psychic and Danie Krugel to find the missing girls in the Gert van Rooyen case. They then dug at the spots where the psychic and Danie said these girls were. Found some bones. Had DNA analysis done on them. Found that they were human and some of them were female (but couldn't match the DNA to the parents of the missing girls). Showed the show to parents of the missing girls who said "now we can find closure". They said they were going to give the evidence they found to the police.

What evidence are they talking about? They didn't find any!  Huh? My wife and I were completely baffled as to what the point of the whole show was.
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2007, 14:00:00 PM »

Okay, let's get a little realistic, shall we?  But first, read the Carte Blanche transcript here.

The short version: Some small bones and bone fragments were found by Carte Blanche at a dam near suspected child murderer/paedophile Gert van Rooyen's home.  van Rooyen, who supposedly committed suicide after killing his mistress in a police pursuit back in January 1990, is alleged to have abducted, molested and murdered at least five young girls in the Pretoria area.  The bones are said to have been found as a result of information provided by Danie Krugel, and also assisted by Marietta Theunissen who says she can talk to dead people.  Krugel used his "Science, science, science!" hair locating technology, while Theunissen says she chatted with one of the victims.  The bones were subjected to stringent DNA testing.  Importantly, though the bones could not be incontestably identified to be human, they were accepted to be human but could not be tied to any of the victims.

It is a given that supporters of Krugel and Theunissen will chalk this little charade up as an overwhelming success.  Ruda Landman most certainly did, swallowing the entire line fed by these two shameless hucksters.

Krugel was employed by the police for several years and is very likely to have retained contacts within SAPS, and it is very likely that he has access to inside information.  Also, the van Rooyen police docket disappeared some time ago.  The case was quite high profile and much has been written about it in the last 16 years.  It is, moreover, likely that the area identified for examination by Krugel and Theunissen is in some sense an obvious choice for hiding or disposing of a corpse.

But here's the cracker.  Theunissen has previously "worked" on the van Rooyen case and was therefore acquainted with many of the facts:
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In haar loopbaan as hulpwerker het sy tot dusver meer as 200 moordsake help oplos, ongeveer 100 selfmoordsake aangepak asook hordes sake van kinders wat verdwyn en wegloop.  Toe daar geen nuwe leidrade was nie, het die polisie Marietta nadergeroep om te help met bekende sake soos dié van vermoorde Leigh Matthews, "maar Gert van Rooyen en die vermiste meisies was net te veel vir my.  Daar was net so baie duisternis, hartseer en pyn in daardie saak.  Dit het my baie uitgeput."


Yet again Carte Blanche fails both its audience and its journalistic integrity by not mentioning some of these rather telling titbits.  What is needed is a controlled test, as per the James Randi Million Dollar Challenge.  Almost as convincing would be if Theunissen and/or Krugel were to find Madeleine McCann.

But don't bet on that happening any time soon.

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« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2007, 20:41:50 PM »

I have posted a reference to this topic under the "Junk Science and Alternative Medicine" with the heading "BodyTalk & Quantum Quackery".

I am not going to repeat any of it here, other than my utter dissappointment in Carte Blanche for entertaining the likes of Danie Krugel and Marietta Theunissen.  We are all behind anyone who can assist with ciminal cases and these cases in particular, but are we not going a bit too far?  One can argue that one must follow every lead to solve a crime - this is absolutely true and cannot be disputed.  Should this, however, include crackpot theories as well?

Luthon64 could not have said it better
Quote
Until he shows us all to be wrong, we must assume that Danie lives by peddling false hope via a deception that should have been exposed at birth.

We need to INSIST that this "invention" be tested and proven under a controlled environment (shortly followed by - i would imagine - tarring and feathering of a certain quantum quack & co)
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2007, 15:17:51 PM »

Hello and welcome to the forum, Sentinel.

We are all behind anyone who can assist with ciminal cases and these cases in particular, but are we not going a bit too far?  One can argue that one must follow every lead to solve a crime - this is absolutely true and cannot be disputed.  Should this, however, include crackpot theories as well?
We need to be careful here to distinguish what could be a genuine lead from that which is probably a hoax.  Krugel's supporters almost always and uniformly advance one or more of the following three arguments in favour of his claims:
  • It is possible that he has discovered something novel;
  • Krugel has been successful in other cases, and
  • We must try even the most unlikely things when looking for missing loved ones.

To address the first point, of course it is entirely possible that Krugel really has discovered something new.  But is it probable?  Absolutely not!  Why?  Because the man just smirks "Science, science, science," while there is no known way this alleged technology can work as he says it does; he won't file for a patent or publish a scientific paper so that his alleged technology can be peer reviewed (he'd probably get a Nobel Prize just for being able to extract DNA signatures quickly from hair using his magic box, never mind tracking its source continuously); he refuses to undergo proper and controlled scientific testing; his history and current background are inconsistent with those of the lone genius inventor, and he is always entirely diffident when it comes to cases where his knowledge can be no better than that of the next person.  All of which is a tad suspicious, I think you'll agree.  And saying, as some have done, that he's an upstanding, trustworthy, humble person of high moral principles does not ― in fact, cannot ― absolve him of having to deliver credible evidence for his claims.  Similarly, the idea that he's worried about having his technology stolen is a washed out ruse: a patent will protect him quite well, and the James Randi validation protocol isn't interested in finding out how it works, only in finding out that it works.

The second point is selection and confirmation bias in their purest forms.  None of the cases Krugel has worked on and none of the tests he was given were adequately controlled to eliminate cheating on his part and/or making use of insider information.  The newspaper reports don't clearly state that Krugel's involvement was indispensable, and in one case, Krugel led a family around the country on a proverbial wild goose chase (see moonflake's blog for more details – link in an earlier post in this thread).

The third point is an appeal to emotions that has not been considered carefully enough: if the suggested technique is likely to be bogus then it is equally likely to be a waste of time and resources.  All it manages is to keep up the invariably false hopes of the friends and relatives of the missing person, and to further the ultimately selfish delusion, reputation and purse of the woo-woo practitioner.  Marietta Theunissen claims to have helped the police in more than 300 homicide cases, including suicides.  Her say-so is hardly evidence, but people, including herself, obviously want to believe her.  300 such cases are enough to do a statistical test to determine whether her "help" actually makes any difference to the success or effort when compared to cases where she is not involved, but such tests simply aren't done despite being relatively easy.  And saying, as some often do, that one must not criticise the "spiritual" work of such people because it brings comfort, ignores the fact that they are being lied to as well as the even deeper hurt that will ensue from finding out that it's a sham.  Thus, it should be clear how suggesting Krugel or Theunissen as a potential solution, given the scarcity of credible evidence to support their claims, is no more laudable than suggesting you go and stick your head under water until you have a vision of where your loved ones might be.  So again it would be far more sensible to invest that effort in proven techniques, like police work and forensics.

What it all comes down to is that if, at the end of the day, you can truthfully say to yourself that you've left the world a slightly more honest place than it was when you woke up, then your day was a worthwhile one.

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« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2007, 13:59:54 PM »

Luthon64, thank you for your welcome message…

You have said it all, and I can only add the following comments.

  • What amazes me is that the likes of Krugel and Theunissen are called in again and again (mainly on the public’s request) but their claims of paranormal abilities are never properly validated, nor are accurate statistics provided, as you pointed out.

    False leads waste everybody's time.  If my memory serves me correctly, the detectives ended up in Swaziland, based on a false lead during the first stages of this investigation.  It is therefore imperative that leads are properly checked.  In the case of paranormal leads, not only should the information be validated but the source as well.

  • I am not convinced that we will see the likes of Danie Krugel featuring as one of the James Randi applicants any time soon.  His claim is that it is “Science! Science! Science!” and the JREF offer a reward for proof of the paranormal.  No amount of debate will convince him that it is anything but science, even though we may argue that his “invention” exceeds what we consider as physically possible, thus paranormal.

  • After the repeat of the story last night, Krugel mentioned during a demonstration that the key to his invention is the power source, but stops there.  There are only 3 possible types of power sources I can think of.  -1- Power known to man (why mention it then), -2- Paranormal power (in which case the JREF would like a demo), or -3- New technology.

    Should this, in fact, be a new breakthrough in power sources, I insist that the Department of Health and Safety investigate this thoroughly to check if it is not detrimental to other people’s health.  It could be radioactive or nuclear for all we know.

The only possible way to satisfy this debate would be for Krugel to patent the thing and give it to the world.  It’s as simple as that – Occam would approve.

What would his motive be for keeping it from the world?  Are we still in the Dark Ages where scientists are burnt on a stake by the Church?  Is it still misunderstood by the inventor himself? I think not.

The only probable reason is that Krugel’s “Ouija Board with Quantum GPS interface” is as much real as the myth that my Rottweiler can look into a person’s soul.  I have proof – just come very close and stare into her eyes!

Kind Regards,
Sentinel - Patiently waithing for the return of tarring and feathering. (Oops, I said it again!)
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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2007, 16:07:35 PM »

Luthon64, thank you for your welcome message…
You're (still) welcome.  Wink



You have said it all, and I can only add the following comments.

  • I am not convinced that we will see the likes of Danie Krugel featuring as one of the James Randi applicants any time soon.  His claim is that it is “Science! Science! Science!” and the JREF offer a reward for proof of the paranormal.  No amount of debate will convince him that it is anything but science, even though we may argue that his “invention” exceeds what we consider as physically possible, thus paranormal.
Well, the JREF's MDC doesn't care how it works, only whether it works.  They'll test dowsers, so Krugel certainly qualifies.  This has been pointed out to him and to the media as well.  Moreover, on the one hand he's claiming that it's "science," while on the other he won't play the science game.  That behaviour is more usually labelled "hypocrisy."



  • After the repeat of the story last night, Krugel mentioned during a demonstration that the key to his invention is the power source, but stops there.
If Krugel has discovered a new energy source, that alone would qualify him for a trip to Stockholm, followed shortly by everlasting fame and fortune.  But it is hard to make sense of this enticing titbit of information: how can the energy source affect the performance of his machine, unless he's using the word "energy" the way woo-woos, rather than scientists, use it?  After all, energy can be transformed in all sorts of ways, irrespective of its source, so that assertion sounds a bit dodgy.



What would his motive be for keeping it from the world?
As indicated earlier, the usual answer to this question is that Krugel is worried that his technology will be stolen by others, but, as I pointed out earlier, there are several ways he could protect himself and still prove that it does what he says it does.  In fact, on reflection it seems to me more dangerous to play coy on your own because there's little to stop a determined gang from simply robbing him of it violently and then claiming it as their own or selling it to an interested buyer.  Such things happen anyway in South Africa regularly.  It would make much more sense, I think, to prove it to the world with a bang and only then fight off the offers once everyone knows you're the one who invented it.  But obviously we don't know all of the ins and outs, now do we?

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