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The Locator Locates! (Danie Krugel)

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Owen Swart
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« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2008, 11:34:27 AM »

Indeed. Perhaps my prior posts (which were far more sarcastic in tone) burned that bridge. Oh well.

-Owen
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« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2008, 08:44:34 AM »

http://www.thestar.co.za/?fArticleId=4224080
Quote
Brushing aside the sceptics, South African senior systems engineer Johan Booysen believes Krugel was "spot-on" in the co-ordinates he gave last month to locate his missing father, pilot Dirk Booysen.
The wreckage of his plane and the charred body of Dirk Booysen were found in the dense Baviaanskloof mountains shortly after Christmas.
"At first we misinterpreted his co-ordinates, but when we looked again, we saw he had been spot-on," said Booysen.
"It was very difficult terrain and Danie never gave us any false hope about my father. He just offered to help - for free - and that's what he did.

What do you know, he was spot on all along...  Roll Eyes
How do you misinterpret coordinates?
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« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2008, 10:46:50 AM »

Yah, we spotted the streetlamp-mounted “Saturday Star” headline posters which read something like, “‘I Know Where Maddie Is’ - SA Cop.”  Thinking it might be Krugel, we immediately bought a paper and, sure enough, there he was on page three.

We think the article could have done with quite a bit more sceptical counterbalance, and we found two issues particularly bothersome:
Quote from: ‘Maddie lies here’ by  Glynnis Underhill, Saturday Star 26/01/2008, p. 3
… the ex-cop - dubbed “The Locator” as a result of his high rate of success in tracing missing people in SA - has broken his silence…
No.  The epithet “The Locator” first arose here in this very forum.  It had absolutely nothing to do with Krugel’s alleged success.  Had Underhill bothered to do a little actual research, rather than twiddling the public’s wowee knobs, she’d have discovered that Krugel’s so-called “successes” do not withstand scrutiny, being based on hype, testimonial, anecdote and a convenient disregard for the man’s several failures.

The second point is the one raised by bluegray V: how, exactly, does one misinterpret coordinates?  It seems a safe bet that Krugel uses GPS (i.e. global) coordinates (rather than, say, SA cadastral survey coordinates), because the article states that his equipment makes use of satellite technology.  Also, if he was using a less common coordinate system, one might expect him to make this clear to the searchers.

Interestingly, the article quotes Krugel as saying that his equipment is in the process of being patented.  We’ll see whether that’s true or not.  Elsewhere, the point is made that Krugel does all his “locating” at no charge, and much is made of his “concern” for missing persons.  Ultimately, these rhetoric devices are meant to suggest that Krugel is a generous, giving person whose main concern is helping people with little thought for himself.  While all of that may be true, it does not – and cannot – affect our scepticism towards the physical claims he is making with regard to hair and his “Matter Oriented System” until he puts forward some real evidence, for example a double-blind test conducted by a credible authority.

At the same time, it must again be reiterated that the Star has served the reading public poorly with this article that has a decidedly credulous flavour.  Just what will it take for journos and editors to understand that when a few eminently qualified experts say that there is no known way Krugel’s device can work as he describes, it isn’t a case of two or three opinions against Krugel?  Because they seem to have a hard time with the idea that there are tens, even hundreds of thousands of scientists rallied behind those dissenting experts.  Moreover, the “suppressed genius inventor” myth à la Galileo is, while very romantic and appealing, an outdated, easily punctured fairytale, which, more importantly, says precisely nothing about whether Krugel can do what he says he can.

'Luthon64
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 10:48:29 AM by Anacoluthon64 » Logged
slowcheetah
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« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2008, 08:38:10 AM »

Quote
If by “yet to be debunked” you mean exposing exactly what Krugel is up to, then you’d be correct.  But if instead you mean that Krugel’s methods still need to be shown to be ineffective and based on hype, you’d be wrong:  There are several cases where he has failed abysmally and it is in the nature of people and the popular media to push our collective “wowee!” button by punting the successes (without properly investigating them, either) and disregarding the failures.  Moreover, the scientific approach demands that we regard such an implausible claim as false until the evidence in its favour compels us to change that view.  Krugel’s only evidence is anecdotal, which is a kind way of saying “at best feeble.”

Well neither actually. I'm merely showing interest in what the hell this guy is doing. You've got to admit that there's something strange and unprecedented in the way he operates. And yes it does activate the 'wowee' switches in most people but I don't think you can blame them. It's some strange shit.

What I would like to see is either him getting properly exposed as a fraud or his methods being made public.

Also how long is he going to take to get his device patented. Or is that where the problem is?
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« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2008, 09:28:19 AM »

You've got to admit that there's something strange and unprecedented in the way he operates.
I don't see any novelty in what he does, it is the same trick that psychics use but with a background in police investigation it means that he can make (slightly) better guesses.

What I would like to see is either him getting properly exposed as a fraud or his methods being made public.

Also how long is he going to take to get his device patented. Or is that where the problem is?
In applying for a patent, an inventor is required to expose every facet of the functioning of the device, the more explicit the better because in order for another person to copy the idea they would need to make at least six fundamental changes for the law to recognise that it is not a violation of the patent.  If Danie's patent application is "It uses quantum 'n stuff" then it will be thrown out because it would easily violate other patents from the word go.

The patent application is mostly posturing, because an application makes the POS (I mean MOS) seem credible.  Even if the patent application is rejected, he can go on for years continuing to say that it is in the process of a patent application (simply by submitting a "It uses quantum 'n stuff 'n shit" amendment - or even by NOT resubmitting and ignoring the rejection).  You have to remember that although patents are very public; the patent application process is very private (the idea is not yet protected by law).  You are not even allowed to call the patent office and confirm that a patent has been submitted by a particular person.

But what weight is added by having a patent?  It can be used as a "parking space" for a future idea.  There are patents for the perpetual motion machine (US20070246939), free energy devices, and so on.  Does that mean that the device works or that the person is "reserving" the (ridiculous) idea?
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« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2008, 11:17:57 AM »

On the topic of Krugel’s purported patenting of his technology, here’s an interesting titbit:
Quote from: Wikipedia on “Patent prosecution”
Some jurisdictions go one step further: an application is passed to issue and publication as an enforceable patent in short order, with no substantive examination. Examples include Bermuda, South Africa and Germany (in the case of Gebrauchsmusters (utility model)). Consideration of novelty and non-obviousness/inventive step is left open until litigation. Obviously such a patent does not carry the same presumption of validity as a patent that has been fully examined. Such systems are known as "invention registration" regimes, and have the benefit of reduced costs because applicants may postpone or completely forego the expensive process of examination for inventions that are of small or speculative value to the applicant's main fields of endeavor. Another advantage with such systems is that a patent is granted relatively fast. A patent in South Africa, for example, is granted approximately 8 months after date of filing whereas in examining countries it is highly unusual for a patent to be granted in less than 3 years.
If Krugel is seeking a patent in South Africa, as seems reasonable to suppose, all of the above plays directly into his hands and we should see some action soonish.

But I for one won’t be holding my breath.

'Luthon64
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 11:20:48 AM by Anacoluthon64 » Logged
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« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2008, 13:52:40 PM »

This just in. This article appeared in the Rapport yesterday, but isn't up on their website yet:

Quote
23/02/2008 21:56  - (SA) 
Uitvinder wat vermistes kry, sê hy kan kanker bespeur
Maryna van Wyk



Bloemfontein

Die Bloemfonteiner wat wêreldwyd bekendheid verwerf het met sy DNS-opsporingstelsel om vermiste mense te vind, glo sy nuutste uitvinding kan kankerselle in die menslike liggaam opspoor en dokters help om kanker gouer en vroeër by pasiënte te identifiseer.

Mnr. Danie Krugel was die afgelope jaar gereeld in die media-kollig nadat hy die lyk van die vermiste Naledi Ntebele (5), wat buite Brandfort vermoor en verkrag is, binne 30 minute met sy DNS-opsporingstelsel gevind het.

Krugel het ook onlangs ’n gebied in Portugal uitgewys waar hy glo die vermiste Britse meisie Madeleine McCann se lyk is.

Hy was ook in die nuus toe hy in die soektog na slagoffers van die pedofiel Gert van Rooyen beendere met sy toestel uitgewys het.

Krugel het die afgelope week sy nuutste uitvindsel aan ’n Bloemfonteinse internis, dr. Frieda Pienaar, gedemonstreer.

Pienaar het verskeie bloedmonsters van pasiënte wat aan kanker ly aan Krugel gegee, asook ’n paar buisies wat die bloed van gesonde mense bevat het.

Tydens die toetse in Pienaar se spreekkamer het Krugel die buisies bloed een ná die ander voor sy klein elektroniese toestel gehou.

Die toestel, wat met data van sekere kankersoorte gelaai is, het aangedui of kankerselle teenwoordig is.

Die toestel het geen reaksie getoon nie wanneer ’n buisie kankervrye bloed daarvoor geplaas is.

Krugel sê die inhoud van sy silwer tassie is nog ’n groot geheim, want sy uitvindsel is nog nie gepatenteer nie.

Hy was wel bereid om te sê dat hy die beginsel toepas waarvolgens dieselfde soort materie onderling kommunikeer.

Krugel het die toetse die afgelope week in Rapport se teenwoordigheid herhaal.

In een van die buisies was ’n speldekop-grootte borskankergewas. Die toestel het deur ’n aanwyser aangetoon dat kanker in die buisie teenwoordig is.

’n Buisie met bloed van ’n gesonde mense is toe aan Krugel gegee om te toets.

Hy het nie geweet wat die bloed se status is nie. Die toestel het die koeranttoets geslaag en nie gereageer nie.

Oor sy nuutste uitvinding sê Krugel hy kan kanker in ’n radius van 4 m opspoor.

Hy het die toestel drie maande gelede begin ontwerp en dit selfs al op mense getoets. “Die toestel het groot moontlikhede. Dit kan selfs moontlik wees om data van ander siektes op my toestel te laai. Sodoende kan siektes baie vroeër gediagnoseer word en behandeling gouer begin,” sê hy.

Pienaar, wat die afgelope vyftien jaar spesialiseer in endokrinologie en siektes soos bloedkanker en diabetes, sê selfs bloed van pasiënte wat byna van kanker genees is, het ’n reaksie van Krugel se toestel ontlok.

“So ’n toestel kan dokters in spreekkamers gouer help om kanker op te spoor sodat verdere toetse gedoen kan word.”

This is an alarming tendency... when an opportunistic kook starts moving in a medical direction.
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« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2008, 15:42:29 PM »

Alarming indeed, thanks for the post.
Seems that Krugel doesn't have a problem with being tested, as long as it's not a proper test... Unless Maryna van Wyk is as skilled in the art of detecting frauds as she is in writing researched one sided puff pieces, I wouldn't take this "koeranttoets" seriously. I doubt there were proper controls and it sounds like the usual unproven claims from Krugel, eagerly excepted by gullible professionals who should know better.

As for Dr. Frieda Pienaar, it is possible her comments are taken out of context, because she does not actually endorse the product. Although some people might certainly get that idea from reading the article. Maybe someone should contact her for comment.
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« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2008, 15:48:10 PM »

Thanks for that important update, CaptainKlingon.

I have gone to the trouble of translating the article for those whose Afrikaans is anywhere between rusty and non-existent.  Any suggestions for improved translation are, of course, welcome.

Quote from: Rapport article, translated
Inventor Who Finds Missing Persons Says He Can Detect Cancer
Maryna van Wyk
Bloemfontein

The Bloemfontein man who became known worldwide with his DNA-location system for finding missing persons believes that his newest invention can detect cancer cells in the human body and assist doctors identify cancer more quickly and sooner in patients.

Mr Danie Krugel was in the media spotlight regularly for the past year after he found the body of missing Naledi Ntebele (age 5), who was raped and murdered outside Brandfort, within 30 minutes using his DNA-location system.

Krugel also recently identified an area (region) in Portugal where he believes the missing British girl Madeleine McCann’s body is.

He also made the news when he located bones with his apparatus in the search for victims of paedophile Gert van Rooyen.

For the past week, Krugel has demonstrated his latest invention to a Bloemfontein internist, Dr Frieda Pienaar.

Pienaar gave Krugel a variety of blood samples from patients suffering from cancer as well as a few test tubes containing the blood of healthy persons.

During the tests in Pienaar’s consulting rooms Krugel held the tubes with blood, one by one, in front of his small electronic device.

The device, which was loaded with data of certain cancer types, indicated whether cancer cells were present.

The device showed no reaction when a tube with cancer-free blood was placed before it.

Krugel says that the contents of his silver bag (case) are still a big secret because his invention has not been patented yet.

Still, he was prepared to say that he applies the principle according to which materials of the same kind communicate amongst themselves.

For the past week, Krugel repeated the tests in [this newspaper’s] presence.

One of the tubes contained a pinhead-sized breast cancer growth.  By means of a gauge, the device indicated the presence of cancer in the tube.

A tube of blood from a healthy person was then given to Krugel for testing.

He did not know the blood’s status.  The device passed the newspaper’s test and did not react.

About his latest invention Krugel says he can detect cancer within a radius of 4 m.

He started designing the apparatus three months ago and has already tested it on people.  “The system has great possibilities.  It is even possible to load data of other diseases on my device.  In this way, diseases can be diagnosed much earlier and treatment can commence sooner,” he says.

Pienaar, who for the past fifteen years has specialised in endocrinology and diseases like leukaemia and diabetes, says that even the blood of patients who are almost cured of cancer produced a reaction in Krugel’s device.

“Such a device can assist doctors in their consulting rooms with more rapid detection of cancer so that further tests can be done.”
Opportunistic kook, indeed!  Clearly, I must have missed the lecture where “the principle according to which materials of the same kind communicate amongst themselves” was explained and that is why I haven’t stumbled on Krugel’s breakthrough.

'Luthon64
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 10:25:26 AM by bluegray V » Logged
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« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2008, 17:21:57 PM »

The original Rapport article has been posted here.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2008, 17:36:38 PM »

Am I reading this wrong, or does the article say that a test-tube containing a thimble-sized lump of breast cancer was detected as containing cancer, and a test tube with only healthy blood was not? In other words, Danie's magic device v2.0 can detect when naked-eye tumours are floating around in clear test tubes, and when they are not? Holy double-blind testing, batman!
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« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2008, 17:46:55 PM »

Ooopsie, my bad translation. Embarrassed

I read "’n speldekop-grootte borskankergewas" as "’n speldedop-grootte borskankergewas", so the correct translation should be "a pinhead-sized breast cancer growth."

Embarrassed
'Luthon64
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« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2008, 18:59:05 PM »

Well, that's marginally better, but still not what I'd call foolproof!

Given that Danie has now voyaged into the arena of medicine, which is at least slightly more regulated in SA than policework, do we think that he may actually have to subject his new 'device' to some measure of quality control or certification before it can be employed as a medical diagnostic device? Given the proliferation of alternative medicine diagnostic devices that do precisely nothing, I suspect not, but a girl can hope.
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« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2008, 10:41:45 AM »

moonflake posted a nice review of Krugels new cancer fighting services here: http://moonflake.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/danie-krugel-expands-his-imaginary-product-line/
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« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2008, 11:36:11 AM »

Report: Demonstration of the Krügel Theory Tester (KTT) to a Panel of Experts and Specialists – 12 June 2008.

Meet the “KTT.”  Its latest claim to fame seems to be the acquisition of an official name and a catchy acronym.

The report is too full of holes to be taken seriously, chiefly in regard to an apparent lack of any methodological safeguards against deception.  Moreover, the largest test distance was five metres – easily within visual range, and one must, then, ask whether Krügel knew each time exactly where the target sample was.  The report claims that the investigating team consisted of ten experts/specialists, each with a minimum Ph.D. qualification, but only five signatures are shown.  I think that these people have done themselves a grave professional disservice if I am correct in supposing that the tests were conducted on terms and conditions stipulated by Krügel himself.

The report concludes:
Quote from: Prof. JFR Lues (Microbiology, Food Science)
In conclusion, it is deduced that, based on the mentioned observations the KTT utilizes a novel, although to date undefined technology to locate a wide range of substances over various distances. The discovery and possible application of the technique appears to be nothing less than revolutionary.


“Revolutionary” indeed!  That’s why I’m still wholly unconvinced; quite the opposite, actually: I’m alarmed that these experts seem not to have taken adequate precautions against being misled on so “revolutionary” a technology and instead given it their collective thumbs-up based on a single and by all available accounts very poorly designed test session.  One might be excused for suspecting collusion.

'Luthon64
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 12:41:37 PM by Anacoluthon64, Reason: The KTT located a spelling error. DK must have fed it a dictionary. » Logged
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