Universal Basic Income - UBI

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Spike (April 10, 2018, 09:44:21 AM):
Thought I'd introduce this topic here: Is UBI inevitable? Will it work? What did we learn from recent experiments? Here's a short summary: https://www.wired.com/story/the-paradox-of-universal-basic-income/?utm
brianvds (April 10, 2018, 13:43:32 PM):
Thought I'd introduce this topic here: Is UBI inevitable? Will it work? What did we learn from recent experiments? Here's a short summary: https://www.wired.com/story/the-paradox-of-universal-basic-income/?utm

I don't know enough about economics to have much of an opinion. As far as I can work out, the Pareto distribution (i.e. a small number of people end up with most of the income) is pretty inexorable - it happens quite automatically, in almost all societies, whatever we do. And thus it is proposed that a UBI could be a simple way to just keep on cycling some of the income back down (from where it will probably promptly move back up again).

I'd be interested to hear more views; hopefully this thread won't disappear.
Brian (April 11, 2018, 15:28:10 PM):
UBI seems to be a new name for social grants in whatever form. My problems are:
...at whose cost? bigger(obviously the 'haves'...)
...how will the quantum be determined? (need?)
...if it's based on need, you run into a myriad of problems (family size, poverty datum lines etc. whose need is more important?)
Quoting Ayn Rand:
If a man proposes to redistribute wealth, he means explicitly and necessarily that the wealth is his to distribute. If he proposes it in the name of the government, then the wealth belongs to the government; if in the name of society, then it belongs to society. No one, to my knowledge, did or could define a difference between that proposal and the basic principle of communism.
and ...Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force.
brianvds (April 11, 2018, 16:14:56 PM):
UBI seems to be a new name for social grants in whatever form. My problems are:
...at whose cost? bigger(obviously the 'haves'...)
...how will the quantum be determined? (need?)
...if it's based on need, you run into a myriad of problems (family size, poverty datum lines etc. whose need is more important?)
Quoting Ayn Rand:
If a man proposes to redistribute wealth, he means explicitly and necessarily that the wealth is his to distribute. If he proposes it in the name of the government, then the wealth belongs to the government; if in the name of society, then it belongs to society. No one, to my knowledge, did or could define a difference between that proposal and the basic principle of communism.
and ...Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force.


Yeah well, western Europe seems to be scraping by, despite huge social grants and welfare and public health and public transport and public everything. In fact, they seem to be doing better than any society in all of history.

Thus my personal intuition is that I don't mind socialist economic policies of the European sort, as long as they remain confined to the economic sphere. Their obsessive nanny state control over the personal lives of their citizens is quite another matter.

But as I said, I do not know enough about economics to have any passionate views on the matter. My guess is that if you tax, say, Checkers in order to pay social grants to the poor, the poor are going to use the money to buy groceries (and liquor!) - at Checkers. So the money flows straight back where it came from.
BoogieMonster (April 11, 2018, 17:02:50 PM):
I saw a video recently about this and thus quickly googled this article that counters the notion of rich socialistic countries. In short: They built their riches on capitalism and then switched to socialism and have barely grown since save for when they cut back on these measures.

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