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Which one is more scientific: Allopathy or Homeopathy?

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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2008, 12:32:22 PM »

S
Already mentioned here.  Already examined here.

Please answer the earlier question truthfully instead of simply ignoring it by jumping into a new topic.

Thank you.

'Luthon64


Same questions have same answers. What's your question?
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« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2008, 14:02:34 PM »

What appears is not always true. I am here to answer your questions and ask questions from you.
But you have neither asked nor actually answered any questions!  Mostly, you simply make statements that in several cases are completely irrelevant and/or plainly wrong.  When this is pointed out to you, you just change the subject.



Same questions have same answers. What's your question?
Do you know the actual meaning of the word "answer?"  Please pay particular attention to 1.a., 1.b., 2.a. and 2.b.; 5. should not be ignored, either.

My question is still the same one first raised here, and repeated here and here (twice), and here too.  Despite a rich assortment of visual cues – bold and italic typeface, underscoring – that were added for emphasis of important specifications, you replied with this, which reply failed to address what was asked for, as shown here and also here.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2008, 16:08:26 PM »

Call me a psychic but I think we are going to wait a while for a real answer.....
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« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2008, 20:56:32 PM »

Call me a psychic but I think we are going to wait a while for a real answer.....
I just read my tea leaves and they seem to concur with your psychic reading.  Wink
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2009, 07:00:36 AM »

sorry for replying late.
Here's some of the points (memory of water)which were under discussion

Dr. Manish Bhatia: let us suppose that water-ethanol aqueous solutions do have some ‘memory’ but then how do you explain the action of dry homeopathic pills and the medicines that are only triturated in sugar of milk? Clearly the same mechanism could not be working here – four different substances – water, ethanol, sugar of milk powder and cane sugar pills.

Dr. Lionel Migrom: What we do know about the ‘Memory of Water’ so far is that water and ethanol produce complex solutions and they do transmit information about the solutes through hydrogen bonds and lattice formation. But we also know that neither the hydrogen bonds nor the lattices are stable enough to store information indefinitely. The thermodynamic changes also do not last indefinitely. So what else could it be?

let us suppose that water-ethanol aqueous solutions do have some ‘memory’ but then how do you explain the action of dry homeopathic pills and the medicines that are only triturated in sugar of milk? Clearly the same mechanism could not be working here – four different substances – water, ethanol, sugar of milk powder and cane sugar pills

More details/Quoted from http://www.hpathy.com/interviews/Lionel-Milgrom.asp
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« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2009, 19:35:18 PM »

Dr. Manish Bhatia: let us suppose that water-ethanol aqueous solutions do have some ‘memory’…

Dr. Lionel Migrom: What we do know about the ‘Memory of Water’ so far…

let us suppose that water-ethanol aqueous solutions do have some ‘memory’…
Yes, that sums up homoeopathy very tidily: “Let us suppose…” and “What we do know…”.  Repeatable, objective, clear-cut evidence somehow doesn’t quite cut it for homoeopaths.

'Luthon64
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2009, 07:04:07 AM »

"memory of water" findings, first reported in NATURE in 1988

Much water has flown since then

Chaplin and others have repeatedely demonstrated that water has moemory. See for more details

http://avilian.co.uk/2008/08/scientific-research-and-homeopathy-water-memory/
www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/chaplin.html //memory of water
http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/Article/The%20Work%20of%20Dr.%20Masaru%20Emoto.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3817
http://www.hpathy.com/papersnew/rozencwajg-energetic-information.asp
http://hpathy.com/homeopathyforums/forum_posts.asp?TID=8578 //memory of water
http://lkm.fri.uni-lj.si/xaigor/slo/znanclanki/instrumental.htm
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« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2009, 09:30:16 AM »

(I suspect that your latest reply was intended to be posted here.)

There’s hardly any scientifically acceptable evidence listed among those references so I’ll concentrate on the little that is there.  Most of what is listed lacks plausible objectivity.

What Martin Chaplin says about water memory:  “Although there is much support for water showing properties that depend on its prior processing (that is, water having a memory effect), the experimental evidence indicates that such changes are due primarily to solute and surface changes occurring during this processing. The experimentally corroborated memory phenomena cannot be taken as supporting the basic tenets of homeopathy although they can explain some effects.”

What Martin Chaplin says about homoeopathy:  “If an acceptable theory [of how homoeopathy works] was available then more people would consider it more seriously. However, it is difficult at present to sustain a theory as to why a truly infinitely diluted aqueous solution, consisting of just H2O molecules, should retain any difference from any other such solution. It is even more difficult to put forward a working hypothesis as to how small quantities of such ‘solutions’ can act to elicit a specific response when confronted with large amounts of complex solution in a subject.”

What Martin Chaplin says about water memory vis-à-vis homoeopathy:  “Note that, for homeopathy, ‘memory of water’ effects (if proven) not only require the solution to retain information on dilution but require this information to be amplified to negate the effect of the dilution. It is also of importance to note that non-specific mechanisms of action, such as activation of a non-specific immune response, may give rise to effects with specific health consequences. Much research work remains to be undertaken if these real and observable facts are to be completely understood.”

What Martin Chaplin says about the claimed water memory effect in the Rey paper:  “Rey’s rationale for water memory seems most unlikely … most hydrogen bonding in liquid water rearranges when it freezes.”

The bottom line is that even if “water memory” was to become fully vindicated physics, there is still the profound problem of showing how it provides an explanatory mechanism for homoeopathy – analogous to showing how Kepler’s laws of planetary motion result from Newton’s laws of motion and Newtonian gravity.  The fact remains that there is no repeatable, objective, clear-cut evidence that homoeopathy works anything like its proponents wish to claim.

'Luthon64
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2009, 10:02:44 AM »

Unified Theory of Homeopathy and Conventional Medicine

Introduction: Could theoretical links exist between homeopathy and conventional medicine? In homeopathy there is the ancient concept of a self-regulating Vital Force (Vf), disturbance of which results in dis-ease as observed in multi-levelled symptom expression. Treatment attempts to aid the Vf as it attempts to restore holistic balance.

Conventional medicine (allopathy) takes a more deterministic view, considering external agents (viruses, bacteria, etc) or internal biochemical imbalances (e.g., genetic abnormalities) as causes of disease. Treatment is therefore geared towards eradicating these causative factors, sometimes at the expense of the homeostatic immune system.

Method: A previous mathematical metaphor described the Vf as a quantised gyroscopic ‘wave function’, equating strength of symptom expression to degree of Vf gyroscopic ‘precession’. Diseases and homeopathic remedies are interpreted respectively as braking and accelerating ‘torques’ on Vf ‘angular momentum’. Here, approximations applied to the Vf ‘wave function’ provide insights into why conventional medicine dismisses the action of highly potentised homeopathic remedies. In addition, a simple geometric force diagram provides another mathematical metaphor for allopathic drug action and immune system reaction.

Results: The two mathematical metaphors converge on the same result: that from a conventional medical perspective, homeopathic remedies potentised beyond Avogadro’s number should exert no clinically observable effects.

Conclusion: Following the logic of these metaphors, conventional medicine could be seen as a special case of a broader therapeutic paradigm also containing homeopathy.

Lionel R. Milgrom. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. September 2007, 13(7): 759-770. doi:10.1089/acm.2006.6369.
More details/Quoted from  http://www.hpathy.com/research/milgrom-unified-theory.asp
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2009, 10:12:13 AM »

(I suspect that your latest reply was intended to be posted here.)

There’s hardly any scientifically acceptable evidence listed among those references so I’ll concentrate on the little that is there.  Most of what is listed lacks plausible objectivity.

What Martin Chaplin says about water memory:  “Although there is much support for water showing properties that depend on its prior processing (that is, water having a memory effect), the experimental evidence indicates that such changes are due primarily to solute and surface changes occurring during this processing. The experimentally corroborated memory phenomena cannot be taken as supporting the basic tenets of homeopathy although they can explain some effects.”

What Martin Chaplin says about homoeopathy:  “If an acceptable theory [of how homoeopathy works] was available then more people would consider it more seriously. However, it is difficult at present to sustain a theory as to why a truly infinitely diluted aqueous solution, consisting of just H2O molecules, should retain any difference from any other such solution. It is even more difficult to put forward a working hypothesis as to how small quantities of such ‘solutions’ can act to elicit a specific response when confronted with large amounts of complex solution in a subject.”

What Martin Chaplin says about water memory vis-à-vis homoeopathy:  “Note that, for homeopathy, ‘memory of water’ effects (if proven) not only require the solution to retain information on dilution but require this information to be amplified to negate the effect of the dilution. It is also of importance to note that non-specific mechanisms of action, such as activation of a non-specific immune response, may give rise to effects with specific health consequences. Much research work remains to be undertaken if these real and observable facts are to be completely understood.”

What Martin Chaplin says about the claimed water memory effect in the Rey paper:  “Rey’s rationale for water memory seems most unlikely … most hydrogen bonding in liquid water rearranges when it freezes.”

The bottom line is that even if “water memory” was to become fully vindicated physics, there is still the profound problem of showing how it provides an explanatory mechanism for homoeopathy – analogous to showing how Kepler’s laws of planetary motion result from Newton’s laws of motion and Newtonian gravity.  The fact remains that there is no repeatable, objective, clear-cut evidence that homoeopathy works anything like its proponents wish to claim.

'Luthon64


Memory of Water: Dr. Martin Chaplin

the lifetime of hydrogen bonds does not control the lifetime of clusters

the equilibrium concentration of any clusters are governed by thermodynamics not kinetics.

An extraordinary paper authored by Nobel prize-winning Luc Montagnier has shown memory effects in aqueous DNA solutions that depend on interactions with the background electromagnetic field. These effects require the prior processing and dilution of the solutions and are explained as resonance phenomena with nanostructures derived from the DNA and water

Water does store and transmit information, concerning solutes, by means of its hydrogen-bonded network

Water is not just H2O molecules. It contains a number of molecular species including ortho and para water molecules
More details/Quoted from http://www.hpathy.com/research/chaplin-memory-of-water.asp
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« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2009, 14:51:38 PM »

"The water remembers? Give me a break." - http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=124309


It sounds like twaddle, and it seems, from the Wikipedia entry, that is indeed twaddle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory
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« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2009, 19:29:41 PM »

[W]ater does not have a magical memory of the vibrations of what was diluted in it. Transient interactions of water molecules does not, by any stretch of the imagination, confer upon water the ability to store and transmit complex chemical information from a solution to a tablet to a biological system.
(More on homoeopathy at Science-Based Medicine.)

Likely as not, “Dr” Malik won’t read any of it.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2009, 11:21:17 AM »

I'm sure glad water doesn't have a memory, just think about all gross places it's been. Tongue
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #43 on: December 24, 2009, 20:09:55 PM »

Immunology and Homeopathy:

Paolo Bellavite1, Riccardo Ortolani2, Francesco Pontarollo1, Giuseppina Pitari3 and Anita Conforti4

1Department of Scienze Morfologico-Biomediche, University of Verona, Piazza L. A. Scuro, 37134 Verona,
2Association for Integrative Medicine ‘Giovanni Scolaro’,
3Department of Basic and Applied Biology, University of L’Aquila and
4Department of Medicina e Sanità Pubblica, University of Verona, Italy

Abstract

The foundation of homeopathic medicine is the ‘Similia Principle’, also known as the ‘Principle of Similarity’ or also as the ‘Simile’, which reflects the inversion of pharmacological effects in healthy subjects as compared with sick ones. This article describes the inversion of effects, a widespread medical phenomenon, through three possible mechanisms: non-linearity of dose–response relationship, different initial pathophysiological states of the organism, and pharmacodynamics of body response to the medicine. Based on the systemic networks which play an important role in response to stress, a unitary and general model is designed: homeopathic medicines could interact with sensitive (primed) regulation systems through complex information, which simulate the disorders of natural disease. Reorganization of regulation systems, through a coherent response to the medicine, could pave the way to the healing of the cellular, tissue and neuro-immuno-endocrine homeodynamics.

Preliminary evidence is suggesting that even ultra-low doses and high-dilutions of drugs may incorporate structural or frequency information and interact with chaotic dynamics and physical-electromagnetic levels of regulation. From the clinical standpoint, the ‘simile’ can be regarded as a heuristic principle, according to which the detailed knowledge of pathogenic effects of drugs, associated with careful analysis of signs and symptoms of the ill subject, could assist in identifying homeopathic remedies with high grade of specificity for the individual case.

Keywords: action – reaction principle – biologic networks – homeopathic medicine – hormesis – inverse effects – paradoxical pharmacology – response to stress – self-organization – Similia principle – Wilder's rule

The article was initially published in Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine : eCAM. Please cite the original source as -
Bellavite, P., Ortolani, R., Pontarollo, F., Pitari, G., Conforti, A. (2007). Immunology and Homeopathy. 5. The Rationale of the 'Simile'. Evid Based Complement Alternat Med 4: 149-163

More Details/Quoted from http://www.hpathy.com/research/Bellavite-immunology-and-homeopathy.asp
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« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2009, 00:15:50 AM »

Yes, that’s right.  Please do feel free to change the subject, say from water’s alleged memory to similia similibus curentur, whenever you can’t address the objections to your claims.  That way your audience won’t know you’re cheating.

'Luthon64
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