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Which one is more scientific: Allopathy or Homeopathy?

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rwenzori
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« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2009, 07:05:29 AM »

Yo! Dr. Nancy! Don't change the subject now.

It being Xmas Day and all, I am pleased to announce a one-time-only Xmas Special on our Dehydrated Water. In the scientific breakthrough of the century, our researchers have found a way to infuse Real Memories (tm) into our product! By using Quantum-Nano-Technology and our very own Electron-Spin Motors ( newly developed at a cost of billions ) we can bring to the market the most amazing innovation since cornflakes!

Just one litre of reconstituted Dehydrated Water can bring back years of happy memories. We can offer, for today only at a special price of US$1000 per each 1g pack ( suitable for 1 whole litre of water ):

- The Birth-Memory special: recall your own birth!
- The Lost Virginity Special: remember that special moment behind the school bogs!
- And many more - see our website for details.

But wait, there's more! For a US$2000 pack we will give you SOMEONE ELSE'S MEMORIES! That  price buys you memories of some old random git we found wandering around outside the lab. But for a small extra fee, we can do Hitler, Napoleon, Marilyn Monroe, just name your pleasure!

Our labs will shortly be announcing yet another major breakthrough. We are sworn to secrecy, but just a hint - would you like to talk to your long-dead granny?

Real Memories (tm) are completely real - better than the foggy ones in your own brain. You actually re-live the events. So don't waste time! ROLL UP! ROLL UP!
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2010, 12:41:44 PM »

Yes, that’s right.  Please do feel free to change the subject, say from water’s alleged memory to similia similibus curentur, whenever you can’t address the objections to your claims.  That way your audience won’t know you’re cheating.

'Luthon64
I have not changed the topic. I am still contributing with title of the thread kept in mind
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2010, 12:44:36 PM »

A Geometrical Description of PPR Entanglement and the Curative Homeopathic Process: Dr. LIONEL R MILGROM

Introduction: The Memory of Water, a ‘local’ explanation of homeopathy’s efficacy, has been supplemented recently by complementary ‘non-local’ hypotheses. One of these envisages a form of quantum macro-entanglement between patient, practitioner, and remedy to form a so-called ‘PPR’ entangled state, from which the possibility of cure may manifest.

Method: Semiotic analysis affords a geometrical description of this entangled state as a patient-centred chiral tetrahedron. Its four corners depict three different types of symptoms (of the patient, the dis-ease, and the remedial substance) and the potentised remedy.

Results: Reflecting this state in a practitioner-derived mirror-like ‘therapeutic state space’ generates two notional patient-centred chiral tetrahedra: cure may be thought to arise from their patient-driven combination ‘through the looking glass’ of the therapeutic state space, into one polyhedron called a stella octangula or stellated octahedron; in essence, a 3-D Star of David.

Conclusion: The practitioner may help in forming these notional semiotic polyhedra, but the patient is at their epi-centres, i.e., the practitioner facilitates but does not control the curative process.

Lionel R. Milgrom. The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. April 2008, 14(3): 329-339. doi:10.1089/acm.2007.0674.

For more details/Quoted from http://www.hpathy.com/research/Milgrom-PPR-Entanglement-homeopathy.asp
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« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2010, 13:14:12 PM »

The quote from Milgrom reads more like a medieval treatise on magic than a quote from a scientific paper.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2010, 15:24:23 PM »

I have not changed the topic. I am still contributing with title of the thread kept in mind
Yes, you have.  The discussion was about the alleged “memory of water” until you swapped it for one of homoeopathy’s basic principles.  Go back and read the last few posts.



The quote from Milgrom reads more like a medieval treatise on magic than a quote from a scientific paper.
Actually, it’s instructive in the sense of illustrating the lengths these woo-woo merchants will go to in an effort to maintain their delusion.  Milgrom’s “‘PPR’ entangled state” is pure hooey pulled from a tatty hat.  These people haven’t the first clue what quantum entanglement is so they invent pseudoscientific jargon to dupe their readership with.  Just read “Dr” Malik’s citation of Milgrom in her last post.  Any second-year physics undergraduate will immediately see that Milgrom is either playing a monstrous joke on his readership or he doesn’t know the first thing about QM.  Personally, I’m not too sure which option is the more worrying one.

'Luthon64
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2010, 07:09:38 AM »

I have not changed the topic. I am still contributing with title of the thread kept in mind
Yes, you have.  The discussion was about the alleged “memory of water” until you swapped it for one of homoeopathy’s basic principles.  Go back and read the last few posts.



HYDROBIOTRONICS: A therapy based on signals, being an extraordinary leap in the water's memory concept for the future of Homeopathy.

Salvatore Rainò, M.D.

Abstract: A homeopathic remedy triggers in a healthy person (during a proving) and eliminates in the ill person the same symptomatology. Therefore symptoms are at the center of a possible oscillation between health and illness. The patient corresponds to the same energy frequency as the correct remedy which is capable of healing him. With my new device, it is possible to pick up a signal directly from a patient and give him back the same signal (after adequate amplification) to produce a valid homeopathic therapeutic action.

Objective:An automatic sequence of steps for preparing a homeopathic remedy, based on a new continuous dilution system, patented by the author, was realized. It permits one to automatically achieve the correct remedy and also confirms the mechanism of homeopathic remedies.

Other clinical homeopathic elements were clarified, confirming that the homeopathic theory is correct and that quantum physics is the future of Homeopathy.

Methods: A special sensor was used to gather information from different sources, including : the third eye point on the forehead, a homeopathic remedy (liquid) and a pharmacologic substance. In the first case, a signal was picked up from a subject and its frequency imprinted on a virgin sugar granule. This granule was then taken under the tongue for therapy. In the second case, the frequency of an ordinary remedy was imprinted on a virgin granule and used both to treat a sick person and induce a proving in a healthy person.

In the third case a signal was taken from a chemical substance and used to stimulate healthy subjects into producing a modulatory response.

Results:The sources used for the signal uptake allowed for different kinds of effects:

1. A rapid resolution of acute symptoms.

2. A deep therapeutic action by repeated use of the prepared granules in chronic cases, with an initial return of symptoms related to previous periods of life - typical during well managed homeopathic therapy.

3. A transfer of the specific action from a source remedy onto virgin granules which were then able to induce symptoms in subjects.

Functional modifications were induced from granules imprinted from a drug and from a “donor”.

There is evidence of an intelligent discretion in response to a drug beyond the specific effects of the drug, and of the ability to transfer information of all kinds.

Conclusions: It was possible to pick up a signal directly from a patient in order to give him back the same signal (after adequate amplification), providing a valid therapeutic action.25 It was possible to accomplish an automatic homeopathic diagnosis and therapy, probably based on biophotonics, according to the theories of quantum physics (as the studies of Fritz-Albert Popp and other authors seem to demonstrate.) The results allow us to understand that homeopathic principles work in a manner different from pharmacologic mechanisms.

More details/Quoted from: http://www.hpathy.com/research/raino-Hydrobiotronics.asp
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cyghost
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« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2010, 08:09:46 AM »

You are just posting this crap without addressing any of the comments and rebuttals mefiante and others have made in your various "threads".

You don't think intelligent people don't notice this? How confused must one be with woo to be so obtuse?
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Mefiante
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« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2010, 10:54:42 AM »

Abstract: A homeopathic remedy triggers in a healthy person (during a proving) and eliminates in the ill person the same symptomatology. Therefore symptoms are at the center of a possible oscillation between health and illness.
I would be hard-pressed to dream up a more ignorantly feebleminded conception of illness vs. health.



The patient corresponds to the same energy frequency as the correct remedy which is capable of healing him.
What exactly is an “energy frequency” physically?  Any support from biomedicine for this remarkable contention?  Any at all?



With my new device, it is possible to pick up a signal directly from a patient and give him back the same signal (after adequate amplification) to produce a valid homeopathic therapeutic action.
Hmm, self-promotion.  I am not surprised, but I am a little confused.  Why, if it is a “homeopathic therapeutic action,” would the signal need “adequate amplification”!?  Given homoeopathy’s principles, it seems obvious that the signal would need “adequate attenuation” to increase its curative potency.



Other clinical homeopathic elements were clarified, confirming that the homeopathic theory is correct and that quantum physics is the future of Homeopathy.
How on earth can that be when these “experts” are so woefully uneducated about QM?  Why are they so quick to profess a knowledge that they clearly have not mastered?



Methods: A special sensor was used to gather information from different sources, including : the third eye point on the forehead, a homeopathic remedy (liquid) and a pharmacologic substance. …
Well, that surely clinches it.  Each of these studies was, of course, meticulously controlled to eliminate any and all experimenter bias.



1. A rapid resolution of acute symptoms.

2. A deep therapeutic action by repeated use of the prepared granules in chronic cases, with an initial return of symptoms related to previous periods of life - typical during well managed homeopathic therapy.

3. A transfer of the specific action from a source remedy onto virgin granules which were then able to induce symptoms in subjects.
All of the above are no doubt objectively verifiable and constitute no less far-reaching a revolution in medical science than the one brought about by Robert Koch, Louis Pasteur, Antoine Bechamp, Joseph Lister, etc.  Is there no end to Dr Salvatore Rainò’s genius?



There is evidence of an intelligent discretion in response to a drug beyond the specific effects of the drug, and of the ability to transfer information of all kinds.
There is also evidence of blithe ignorance bolstered with great gobs of wishful thinking.  Occam’s Razor will help you decide which is more plausible.



It was possible to accomplish an automatic homeopathic diagnosis and therapy…
… making homoeopaths redundant.  That is just the best news ever!



… probably based on biophotonics, according to the theories of quantum physics…
Aha, so the photons reflecting off a patient carry information (as part of their quantum states) about the diseases the patient has (if any), while the quantum states of incident photons can be “tuned” to deliver appropriate treatment – all fully automatic, of course.  Pity it’s total nonsense, having nil support from physics.  The diagnostic part in the case of diseases that present obvious symptoms, e.g. measles or jaundice, has a somewhat more prosaic explanation.  It involves the medical professional’s eyesight registering those reflected photons and then recognising the symptoms.  As a general treatment for all manner of disease, shining light at the patient is just plain goofy.



The results allow us to understand that homeopathic principles work in a manner different from pharmacologic mechanisms.
So very true – with a suitably loose definition of “work.”

'Luthon64
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2010, 20:46:04 PM »

Research into "How homeopathic remedies are created" by Dr. Quack (once a skeptic now pro-homeopathy, actually an American Aerospace engineer)

Real science does a few things the skeptwits do not:Tests – if the ideas are junk or not. If they cannot be tested, the theories are junk. If testable, that is valid theory and proper scientific method

There are no concrete laws in science. All is subject to change!

the Cold Fission / Cold Fusion mystery of homeopathy pertains to a deeper understanding of the nuclear sciences

the whole issue of succusion and dilution could be related to trajectory curves – the same as we do with conventional drugs and their action curves...the buildup of drug effects in the body with time, peak strength, and then wearing off.

Homeopathic principles found in basic wave mechanics apart from the issue of homeopathy at all. Waves alone are homeopathic! [Rifers also report similar observations, by the way.] The Law of Similars is found everywhere in nature because nature all around us is composed of waves and their superposition dynamics

More details/Quoted from: http://www.hpathy.com/research/quack-how-homeopathic-remedies-are-created.asp
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« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2010, 11:10:38 AM »

Real science does a few things the skeptwits do not:Tests – if the ideas are junk or not.
How ironic!  Ignoring the atrociously shoddy standard of “testing” done by homoeopaths and their punters, it’s not the duty of sceptics to test the theories of homoeopaths.  It’s up to the homoeopaths to prove their contentions and up to sceptics and real scientists to examine the proofs for plausibility.  So far, the homoeopaths haven’t been doing very well at all in this regard.



If testable, that is valid theory and proper scientific method
Not so.  As is standard on homoeoworld, there’s a rather important bit missing from the above, namely that a scientific theory must pass testing before it can be considered valid.



Now let me tell you what homoeoprattlers do quite as a matter of course.  They simply make stuff up as and when needed – stuff that is patently inconsistent with well established science.  The following sampling illustrates the point quite well:
There are no concrete laws in science. All is subject to change!

the Cold Fission / Cold Fusion mystery of homeopathy pertains to a deeper understanding of the nuclear sciences

the whole issue of succusion and dilution could be related to trajectory curves – the same as we do with conventional drugs and their action curves...the buildup of drug effects in the body with time, peak strength, and then wearing off.

Homeopathic principles found in basic wave mechanics apart from the issue of homeopathy at all. Waves alone are homeopathic! [Rifers also report similar observations, by the way.] The Law of Similars is found everywhere in nature because nature all around us is composed of waves and their superposition dynamics

'Luthon64
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2010, 15:17:57 PM »

Research Challenges in Homeopathy: Dr. Ubiratan Adler

On the pathway towards plausible mechanisms to explain the biological effects of Homeopathy, the hypothesis of modification of the electromagnetic characteristics of the solvent has recently gained support in the findings of Nobel Prize winner Prof. Montagnier and his Colleagues. Using a device designed by Prof. Benveniste and Collaborators[2] [3] they demonstrated that bacterial DNA sequences at high aqueous dilutions can induce electromagnetic waves, if those sequences are serially diluted and strongly agitated on a Vortex apparatus[4].

Finding a general plausible explanation is different from determining the exact mechanism of action of homeopathic remedies. This knowledge however, is not essential for clinical research. For instance, after six decades of intensive research on the development of antidepressant drugs, the therapeutic action of these agents remains largely unknown[5] [6].

Should RCTs aim at measuring Ultra High Dilutions UHDs or their effects on samples of patients suffering from a specific disease? In an analogous manner, Psychotherapy cannot be readily measured either, but it has been extensively investigated by “current scientific methodshttp://www.hpathy.com/research/adler-research-challenges-homeopathy.asp
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rwenzori
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« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2010, 17:44:59 PM »

Oh Doctor, can you help me -
There's someone in my Perrier;
This person I have never met
Wants to kick me in my derrière.

Srsly though, is it true that this Montagnier published the paper himself in his own journal?

http://www.quackometer.net/blog/labels/Luc%20Montagnier.html
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« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2010, 17:53:13 PM »

An Investigation into Whole Systems Research (WSR) as an Appropriate Methodology for the Advancement in Understanding of Homeopathy as a Complex Therapeutic Intervention: Ilana Dannheisser

The study by Thompson and Weiss (2006) exemplifies WSR in action.

The history of research in homeopathy demonstrates the difficulty in proving its effectiveness, though homeopathy continues to be an attractive therapeutic intervention1

In a paper published in the BMJ (British Medical Journal), Mason (2002) called for CAM to be evaluated rigorously, but pointed out that reductionist research methods such as randomised controlled trials (RCTs) fail to take into account the holistic nature of CAM. Evidence of effectiveness could be provided if: 1) well designed RCTs do not misrepresent CAM’s holistic essence, 2) practitioners are recognised as a component and 3) both specific and non-specific outcome measures with long follow up are included7.

“Placebo-controlled RCTs are precise instruments designed to dissect a single hypothesis of pharmacological specificity. In CAM interventions the hypothesis is much more diverse.” : Jonas, Lewith, Walach (2002:33)

“Those who still believe in the superiority of homeopathy over placebo in clinical trials should try to replicate one of the promising positive results reported above and book a good therapist for the time after the trial.”: Walach and Jonas (2002:240)

More details/Quoted from: http://www.hpathy.com/research/Dannheisser-complex-therapeutic-process.asp
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rwenzori
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« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2010, 18:32:19 PM »

You're like a dog on a walk down the street - peeing on each and every lamppost. Why pick on this nice forum? What did we do in our previous lives to deserve you? Eish, eish and eish!

I did enjoy the final response to your WSR drivel over at sciforums:

Quote
Well here's some proof for Malik.

dilute a thread with hundreds of posts about homeopathy (it's matters not if they are for or against), eventually the "watered down thread" will be so diluted that most sane people won't want to participate and those that do are only doing so to try and reason with the insane why such arguments suggesting that homeopathy is of use, is in fact insane.

I'm closing the thread, by all means make any objections heard by pming me, I won't hide the fact that people sometimes complain that their pet loon can't be ranted at anymore.



http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=758d36dc075d7a6dd9a521f388944eb2&t=96305&page=22
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Dr. Nancy Malik
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« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2010, 12:01:00 PM »

You're like a dog on a walk down the street - peeing on each and every lamppost. Why pick on this nice forum? What did we do in our previous lives to deserve you? Eish, eish and eish!

You are showing your abilities to everyone at this forum by being abusive. I only shows you are a frustrated chap. The world deserves, and I too, definitely deserves better. I feel sorry for you.
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