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anti-atheist billboard

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Benjammin
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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2012, 09:16:35 AM »

Maybe so, but the religious anyway already have a much distorted view of atheists.  People will make of things what they will, as instanced in this thread.  Following Mr Gerber’s complaint, one would hope that the religious will be a little more circumspect about demonising atheism, which is where I see the complaint’s consciousness-raising value, as described in an earlier post.

And I’m all for freedom of expression.  Nonetheless, there are good reasons why we have injunctions against hate-speech, of which this billboard was a mild case in its disparagement of the atheist demographic.

'Luthon64
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How can you be all for freedom of expression and want some expression to be censored? Firstly this is a very mild form of hate speech if at all, if calling someone a fool is hate speech, Christopher Hitchens was guilty, I would think most atheist are. Secondly atheists are not a poor persecuted minority that need protection from stupid arguments.

This complaint legitimises shutting down speech without making an argument, and that benefits the religious not the atheists. If instead you put up a bill board saying something like "only a fool accepts a belief based on no evidence and no reasons" that would be a much better response, but now the religious can force you to take that down because it upsets them, well done.

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2012, 09:36:34 AM »

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but now the religious can force you to take that down because it upsets them, well done.

This.

If I had to pick a world to live in, it would be one where people were free to say what they want, whether I like it or not.

The only real problematic thing for me is "inciting violence", but then, at the end of the day it's equivalent to conspiring to commit a crime, and may not need additional provisions in the first place.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2012, 09:41:14 AM »

How can you be all for freedom of expression and want some expression to be censored?
It seems you didn’t read what I wrote with due care.

'Luthon64
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Tweefo
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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2012, 09:44:16 AM »

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If instead you put up a bill board saying something like "only a fool accepts a belief based on no evidence and no reasons" that would be a much better response
That would be a very nice bill board to put up, problem is, we can't. Lack of funds - we don't have a lot of people buying eternity. I must agree with the no vote here. Better to have free speech even if you don't agree with it.
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GCG
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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2012, 09:58:07 AM »

why should 'we' give a shit about billboards, or spreading any form of 'message'.  is this not what a religion does?  isnt the viewpoint of the atheist mind, that we dont give a shit?  when you want to put up billboards, you are recruiting....  when you refer to 'we', does this imply that there is a structured orginization..... like a church?
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Tweefo
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2012, 10:06:11 AM »

why should 'we' give a shit about billboards, or spreading any form of 'message'.  is this not what a religion does?  isnt the viewpoint of the atheist mind, that we dont give a shit?  when you want to put up billboards, you are recruiting....  when you refer to 'we', does this imply that there is a structured orginization..... like a church?
Point taken, but sometimes one want to have a say.
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Benjammin
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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2012, 10:46:02 AM »

It seems you didn’t read what I wrote with due care.'Luthon64

I went back and re-read what you said. You are claiming that this should be shut down on hate speech grounds:

Quote from: Mefiante
Nonetheless, there are good reasons why we have injunctions against hate-speech, of which this billboard was a mild case in its disparagement of the atheist demographic.

Disparagement does not equal hate speech. This was taken down as it infringed on advertising standards, not free speech standards, if the pastor wants to say this in Sunday Mass he can, because it is not hate speech. This site is constantly disparaging all sorts of things, that is not hate. Hate would be if they put up a sign, "kill an atheist today, go to heaven tomorrow", now that would be hate speech. So I don't think the reason you give is legitimate, and I don't think it will lead to Christians thinking better of atheists nor be helpful in the future. I am much more interested in free speech than peoples feelings. I normally agree with most of your comments but in this I think you are completely missing the point.

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Benjammin
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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2012, 11:00:20 AM »

The Indelible Stamp gets it http://tauriqmoosa.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/offended-atheist-gets-stupid-christian-billboard-taken-down/

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Just because I don’t agree with this ruling (at the moment, since perhaps there’s an argument that might persuade me otherwise), does not mean I’m saying we should be soft on religion. In fact, this is not even about religion. This is more important. It concerns how we defend and articulate free speech and expression, since, by definition, free speech only make sense if you can defend the right of your worst enemies to express themselves too.
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GCG
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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2012, 11:00:58 AM »

why should 'we' give a shit about billboards, or spreading any form of 'message'.  is this not what a religion does?  isnt the viewpoint of the atheist mind, that we dont give a shit?  when you want to put up billboards, you are recruiting....  when you refer to 'we', does this imply that there is a structured orginization..... like a church?
Point taken, but sometimes one want to have a say.

the good book has cleverly made it so, that any kind of 'say' us lot have to say, is 'from the devil'.  so any sense we want to drum into them, will just have them clutching their crucifixes even harder.  
best defence?   dont even bother.  vent and rant with fellow skeptics, and leave the woo to their stupidness.
i must say, though, that when they start getting fucking retarded, i will step in.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2012, 11:07:57 AM »

I went back and re-read what you said. You are claiming that this should be shut down on hate speech grounds:…
No, I’m not.  You really need to pay closer attention.

'Luthon64
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2012, 11:41:26 AM »

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best defence?   dont even bother.  vent and rant with fellow skeptics, and leave the woo to their stupidness

Ya know, I think this is a case of persistently wearing people down. You're right that there are no instant wins and it's very demotivating. Some people are just beyond argument for good. But we should note that secularism is on the rise and it's in no small part due to the four horse men (now three. Cry): Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennett.

This ain't no battle but we shouldn't just give up. I engage, sometimes publicly, religious people and shoot down the same same arguments over and over and over. Hopefully eventually it starts to sink in.
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Hermes
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« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2012, 16:16:25 PM »

The Indelible Stamp gets it..

No, (s)he does not.
There is no unified structure in how atheists conceive themselves.

Quite so, but it was the billboard that ascribed certain attributes to "the atheist"; Mr. Gerber responded to that.
He’s doing what our opponents do:

Why should he not do it?  The problem here lies neither with Mr. Gerber nor the ASA's ruling, but with the law itself.  If the rules of the game are flawed and your opponent exploits those flaws, one would be foolish to play the game according to what one believes the rules should be.  Such a cavalier approach would ensure that one loses the game.  It is the law that should be under fire, not Mr. Gerber for exploiting it.  Some people are shooting in the wrong direction here.
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Jacques
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« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2012, 17:01:14 PM »

Here's a picture of the billboard that caused all the trouble: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2087778/Churchs-anti-atheist-billboard-banned-advertising-watchdog.html

Mild satire, in my view, and I'm offended that anyone found it worthy of complaint.
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brianvds
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« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2012, 06:30:51 AM »

Here's a picture of the billboard that caused all the trouble: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2087778/Churchs-anti-atheist-billboard-banned-advertising-watchdog.html

Mild satire, in my view, and I'm offended that anyone found it worthy of complaint.


Quote: "Pulled down: Officials ruled a billboard erected outside a Johannesburg church that suggested atheists considered their existence to be accidental was likely to be found offensive."

And as others pointed out, the real question here isn't whether it is offensive (I find it mildly offensive myself) but why on this earth it is necessary to wage an endless war against offense. Society will never make any progress at all if no one is ever offended.

If the fundies have the right to put up offensive anti-atheism billboards, that means I ALSO have the right to put up my own offensive anti-religious billboards. That is just how I like it.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 11:27:54 AM by brianvds » Logged
Rigil Kent
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« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2012, 07:41:53 AM »

... why on this earth it is necessary to wage an endless war against offense.
Amen to that.

Rigil
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