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Census

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garethmcc
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« Reply #60 on: November 01, 2011, 12:43:07 PM »

Better go cover up your DSTV dish, board up the windows and use public transport so people cant see your car because oh no, someone will see the stuffs you haz.  Roll Eyes
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Lilli
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« Reply #61 on: November 01, 2011, 12:45:45 PM »

Theres a difference between skepticism and paranoia. Someone can walk up to my front door and know where I live if they really wanted to, ... As if they could never guess that there may just be a TV and computer in that house over there.
I'm going to have to agree to some extent with garethmcc - a criminal can probably make a pretty safe guess as to what 'stealable' goods are in a house just by looking at it. So those questions wouldn't bother me. I don't quite understand why census data should include contact details like cellphone numbers though, I mean the whole point of census is to gather data that can be used to determine average living conditions in different areas and of different groups of people, education levels etc. My Name and cell nr doesn't have anything to do with the data that is required for statistical analysis?
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Faerie
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« Reply #62 on: November 01, 2011, 12:49:53 PM »

50 million households (give or take) completed the census and you're worried someone is going to come rob you because of the information in it?

Yes, because its happened to me.  I was raped in my lounge in front of my children. All because I handed a form to a random stranger and he liked the look of me. Paranoid eh? I do expect you to now throw some lovely stats at me, be my guest, until you experience it, you will have no understanding or concept of personal safety.

Trust no-one.
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garethmcc
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« Reply #63 on: November 01, 2011, 12:50:45 PM »

Its possible that data could be. We aren't privy to the analyses they may want to run on the collected data.

To be honest I am surprised by this FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt) on a skeptical forum. If I see evidence of misuse then I'll believe all the paranoia. Until then, it all just seems like paranoia to me.
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garethmcc
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« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2011, 12:53:37 PM »

50 million households (give or take) completed the census and you're worried someone is going to come rob you because of the information in it?

Yes, because its happened to me.  I was raped in my lounge in front of my children. All because I handed a form to a random stranger and he liked the look of me. Paranoid eh? I do expect you to now throw some lovely stats at me, be my guest, until you experience it, you will have no understanding or concept of personal safety.

Trust no-one.


Why would I throw stats at you? My mother was held up at gunpoint and beat up by criminals in her own home as well. And that was without a form. Could he not have seen you on the street? At work? At the supermarket?

I sympathise, really I do. My own mother is traumatised by her experience to this day and will be for the rest of her life (just as the rest of us are). But the census didn't cause him to be a bad man. He would still have done what he did.
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GCG
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« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2011, 14:17:08 PM »

my paranoia is fuelled by one word: corruption.
you cant argue away the full-on truth that your life isnt worth shit in this country, or pretty much anywhere on this planet.  we are a greedy, ignorant, violent species.  and whether i'm being robbed to feed a hungry child, or buy a new watch, i dont give a shit.
my safety is encumbent upon me.  the cops cant do the job.  the govament is too busy lining their pockets to care.
thus.  if it's paranoid to not give out information which will give a resourcefull criminal the ammo to gain access to my bank account/car/home, then by freck, i'm paranoid.
and you are blindingly ignorant to trust your info to a census guy just because he produces an official document with a pretty picture on it.
I trust no 1.  call it paranoia.  it's cool.  but just by the way.  my paranoia has ensured that i have never been mugged, highjacked, wallet stolen, etc.  why?  because i assume that the guy walking towards me will attempt to grab my bag.
i have a postbox.  if you want to contact me.  send me snail mail.  my personal cell number, and my work number, is nobody's goddamn business.
when i wanted to claim for my broken glasses from insurance, they asked me, if i have had any other incidents with items not on the insurance.  and i told her, none of your business.
so, captain newcomer.  mock the paranoid.  and enjoy the rest of your stay here.
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garethmcc
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« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2011, 14:27:33 PM »

I was not trying to mock anyone. I was just having a discussion.

I have never willfully held back my personal information and I have never been mugged, robbed, burgled, stabbed, hijacked, or had any crime performed against me. Correlation does not equal causation. For every person that does not share share an iota of their personal information and has not been a victim of crime there will be others that have been victimised. I can pretty much look at a person's house and consider the neighbourhood they live in and be pretty confident they will have a TV, DVD player, computer, possibly a few small expensive gadgets etc. Hell, that great big dish on the side of your house is a good advert that you have a television.

Most crime in this country is petty. Muggings happen by chance on street corners, not after days or weeks of surveillance and data gatherings. Burglars may case a house for a few days but they don't need more information on you to help determine what you may have in the house before they attempt to rob you. They focus on the soft-target long before they actually care what you own. Most house have SOMETHING of value.

And I am not trying to be confrontational. I am only trying to inject a bit of rationality into the topic.
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Faerie
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« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2011, 14:48:15 PM »


I have never willfully held back my personal information and I have never been mugged, robbed, burgled, stabbed, hijacked, or had any crime performed against me. Correlation does not equal causation. For every person that does not share share an iota of their personal information and has not been a victim of crime there will be others that have been victimised.


Stats?

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Most crime in this country is petty.

Under what rock are you living?

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They focus on the soft-target long before they actually care what you own.

So a woman with two daughters staying alone have no fear of being identified as a soft target by putting that info down on a form then?

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And I am not trying to be confrontational. I am only trying to inject a bit of rationality into the topic.
Acknowledged from my side (although I personally didnt perceive that), I am, as previously admitted, very emotional about my personal safety and particulars, emotions and rationality are'nt bed-fellows though, so I'll, if you'll allow me, retreat from the topic.
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Tweefo
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« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2011, 15:07:54 PM »

It's not just physical crime, identity theft is now a big thing and here we are asked to provide all the details. OK, not bank details, but I am sure criminals get their info from more than one source. I still maintain, they do not need all this info.
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garethmcc
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« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2011, 15:12:07 PM »

I don't know the stats. I never said there was an overwhelming number or the numbers were equal. It just stands to reason that even private people can be victims of crime just as people who arent that private haven't been (such as myself). Doubt there will be much in the way of numbers on that anyways. I don't really see a policeman asking a victim of crime how private they are. So this point is open to speculation.

Most crime in South Africa is petty and driven by need rather than organised. There are stats to that effect. You only see the big organised crime stuff on the news because its sensationalised and there is so much petty crime its no longer news. Telling the story of the big drug bust at the airport is far more ratings-worthy than another story about a burglary.

And those men that hurt you couldn't tell you were a soft-target just from seeing you walk into your house? Perhaps while you were out shopping? My mom was a soft target because she lived alone and the only way they could have found that was by sitting and watching. Perhaps the form wouldn't have led them to you but they still would have found someone else anyway.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2011, 15:13:59 PM »

garethmcc, you need to understand that with age and experience comes caution.  All it takes is a single bad encounter to sour one’s expectations for the outcome of a similar situation.  As humans, we don’t collect and evaluate an “adequate sample” first before making up our minds about the good or bad of something.  One bad event can set aside lots of good ones in a single stroke.

To me, this census question is a matter of both principle and practicality.  The principle is that we have a constitutionally guaranteed right to privacy — except when it suits the powers-that-be!?  Our Constitution overrides everything, which is why the Constitutional Court is the highest court in the land.  No Act of parliament, including the regulations governing the census, can dominate its provisions.  Regardless of the good (or otherwise) intentions behind it, a census is a state-sanctioned subversion of your constitutional rights, especially in view of the fact that it has been made mandatory in direct conflict with the Constitution, and I’m surprised that this legal problem hasn’t surfaced yet.  In short, a census should really require your consensual participation, not be forced upon you.

From a practical perspective, your point about abstraction and drawing summary statistics doesn’t quite hold water.  The data are still captured and held in raw form somewhere and you have no assurance other than a faceless organisation’s promise that your details are and will remain secure.  Also, to establish per-area demographics, a single page of simple questions is wholly sufficient to extract the required statistics (age, gender, income, property, number of dependants, number of cohabitants, geographic area — that’s about half a page).  The degree of detail this census has required is downright intrusive, and it left no room for anonymity.  It’s a marketing truism that, if anything, people are more inclined to lie and embellish when there is no anonymity in such an exercise.

Finally — and you’re welcome to write it off as paranoia — I would not put it past Stats SA clerks and officials to flog data for a few extra bucks to whoever will pay for it.  This is, after all, SA we’re living in.

'Luthon64
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GCG
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« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2011, 16:38:56 PM »

The principle is that we have a constitutionally guaranteed right to privacy
exactly my friggin point!  but regular joe soap does not have time and money to take them to court, no less the constitutional court.

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I would not put it past Stats SA clerks and officials to flog data for a few extra bucks to whoever will pay for it.  This is, after all, SA we’re living in.
yes and yes.  if your bank, who holds waaaay more sensitive data, can flog your details off to spammers, who prevents employess from stats sa from doing it? 
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benguela
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« Reply #72 on: November 02, 2011, 17:05:07 PM »

Census form sent back.

In response to the question: "Do you have any dependants?"

"2.1 million illegal immigrants; 1.1 million crack heads; 4.4 million unemployable people, 901 thousand people in over 85 prisons; and 565 idiots in Parliament."

is not an acceptable answer.

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #73 on: November 02, 2011, 17:25:22 PM »

I'm guessing you got it wrong on purpose.
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