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E Toll

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Mefiante
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« Reply #285 on: March 23, 2016, 10:27:21 AM »

The cases will be handled by judges in the High Court, not magistrates, at least initially because they are high-value claims.  Nonetheless, the issue of partiality prompted by the use of GPF moneys to construct e-diddle is bound to be raised.  If the judges recuse themselves on these grounds, that will spell the end of any and all e-grubby claims for lack of any credible platform upon which they might be heard.

Meanwhile, OUTA soothes public fears.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #286 on: March 23, 2016, 10:37:25 AM »

I'm confused by this whole e-toll fiasco.  I don't live where e-tolls are levied and have never driven on an e-tolled road, so I haven't really tried to get to the bottom of it, but:--

1. Is there a contract in existence between the motorist and the e-toller?

2. If not, what recourse does the e-toller have to pursue the motorist in civil court?

I ask becouse an analogous situation exists in TV licences--the SABC cannot take civil action against non-payers of the TV licence because no contract exists, and if they go the criminal route they have to prove you have a TV and how long you've had it, so they just try bullying tactics to get the fearful to pay.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #287 on: March 23, 2016, 11:03:49 AM »

1. Is there a contract in existence between the motorist and the e-toller?

No.

Quote
2. If not, what recourse does the e-toller have to pursue the motorist in civil court?

Special legislation that was passed just for e-tolls. Their basic claim is that the motorist, knowing that the road was tolled (clearly indicated as such on all signage) still used the road, and I guess thus they think we've thus accepted the toll (and/or contract).

However your objection may well demonstrate exactly why people who willingly signed up for e-tolls are basically screwed.

Quote
I ask becouse an analogous situation exists in TV licences--the SABC cannot take civil action against non-payers of the TV licence because no contract exists, and if they go the criminal route they have to prove you have a TV and how long you've had it, so they just try bullying tactics to get the fearful to pay.

Well actually they "get" you when you walk into a shop to buy any display device. Even computer monitors have now been classified as TV's (and are now suddenly taxed as such, notice a sharp rise in monitor prices lately?). And since the shop will refuse to sell you a "TV" without you producing a TV license.... the enforcement is pragmatic rather than legal in nature.

EDIT: I guess much like erecting tolling plazas never results in non-payment. But in the case of gauteng's freeways would lead to chaos.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #288 on: March 23, 2016, 11:14:00 AM »

1. If a motorist has registered an e-toll account with SCAMRAL, s/he must agree to their T&Cs and in that case there’s a contract.  The upside to registering was a much lower per-km rate and easier payment via e-tag.  Only about 40% of Gauteng motorists fell for this gimmick, probably because it was coupled to the profoundly buggy eNATIS system.  With unregistered users (“alternate” or “VLN” users) there’s no contract.  Still, registered users can argue that they entered into the contract under duress, namely the threat of criminal prosecution.

2. Originally, SCAMRAL threatened criminal prosecution for defaulters (as is the case with TV licences).  However, the appropriate legislative framework doesn’t yet exist in the case of e-leech, and that’s why there’s a rush to push legislation through parliament to criminalise non-payment of e-sponge on the basis of “ignoring a road traffic sign.”  (Some reach, that, eh?)  While that’s in the pipeline, the only recourse SCAMRAL has is civil action and empty threats.  (And of course such legislation, once ratified, cannot work retroactively.)  What SCAMRAL wants is to prevent legal prescription (three years) of the alleged debt by scaring people into acknowledging their debt or preferably by making payments.  Civil action is usually long and tortuous, besides all of the potentially damning legal hurdles that already lie in wait for SCAMRAL along this route.  In short, it’s as you rightly call it: bluster and bullying of the timid.

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« Reply #289 on: April 27, 2016, 19:49:38 PM »

So, are the sheriffs handing out the stuff yet? My gate intercom is out of order so don't know if he came calling.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #290 on: April 28, 2016, 09:14:37 AM »

So, are the sheriffs handing out the stuff yet? My gate intercom is out of order so don't know if he came calling.
Yes, but SANRAL is hunting the really big game first.  If your alleged debt is less than R300,000 (IIRC), your case must be dealt with in a Magistrates’ Court, not the High Court.

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« Reply #291 on: April 28, 2016, 13:40:42 PM »

I suppose my R96 is not so serious then. http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/outa-heads-to-court-to-defend-members-r8m-e-toll-bill-20160428
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #292 on: April 28, 2016, 14:16:38 PM »

Luckily a lack of foresight is it's own Karma.

If I were in charge at scamral (and a complete asshole) I would've beat up some people less capable of defending themselves before going after the Kung Fu master. Any schoolyard bully could've told them, contrary to popular myth, you don't walk up to the biggest guy and just hit him, you first build some cred beating up the nerds.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #293 on: April 29, 2016, 10:24:23 AM »

*Chuckles* I don't know if you are right, BM, but well put.  Grin
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Mefiante
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« Reply #294 on: June 01, 2016, 11:23:39 AM »

Predictably, the carrot flopped.

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« Reply #295 on: August 01, 2016, 12:13:23 PM »

http://businesstech.co.za/news/business/132105/sanrals-60-e-toll-discount-failed-miserably-report/
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #296 on: September 08, 2016, 11:12:42 AM »

OUTA and SANRAL "Reach terms".

But I'm not sure this "temporary immunity" is as cool as OUTA are making out, especially since SANRAL seems to agree these are "test cases" already, which would imply that everyone has "temporary immunity" for the duration anyway? Am I the only one that parses this as such? [EDIT: I should read better, I'm wrong]

Anyway... yet more years of effort, money and newspaper dead trees will go into oblivion before this shit is over.
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brianvds
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« Reply #297 on: September 08, 2016, 12:05:19 PM »

Anyway... yet more years of effort, money and newspaper dead trees will go into oblivion before this shit is over.

Read our lips, SANRAL: WE. ARE. NOT. GOING. TO. PAY!
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Mefiante
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« Reply #298 on: September 08, 2016, 12:25:41 PM »

There’s another telling factor that will soon come into play.  By all accounts, it will be at least a year, perhaps as long as two, before the test case is heard.  The earliest would be after mid-2017, at which point unpaid e-Toll debt incurred before mid-2014, i.e. about seven or more months’ worth since e-Toll inception in December 2013, will have legally prescribed (unless there’s a clear acknowledgement of debt by the affected motorists).

Further, whichever side wins the test case, there’s bound to be at least one appeal, which will only delay matters further because the pre-existing legal conditions remain in force until all appeals are exhausted.  All of this to-and-fro will likely take a few more years to resolve and result in additional prescription of vast debt totals.

An impartial appraisal of this whole e-Toll debacle raises the pressing question of SANRAL’s and the ANC’s sanity in trying to force a system that’s so comprehensively rejected by the public, on the public.  It doesn’t seem to bother them that they’re not going to win themselves any new friends and only succeed in alienating ever more of their old ones.

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #299 on: September 08, 2016, 15:11:42 PM »

Indeed. It is an arrogance on the part of the ANC to imagine that their voters don't matter and that they're rulers who cannot be supplanted should their popularity wane.

I think this notion is being dealt massive blows in our country on a daily basis and it makes me very glad to see it.
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