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Science proves gays are acts of Satan?

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2011, 15:39:35 PM »

I'm trying to figure out WHY the Church (or any other religious organization) would have ANY interest in the sexual preferences of random individuals who have nothing ot do with their church, and whether that church shows the same interest in the sexual preferences of its members. I wonder if the dominee from that church discusses things like 'the bible says that the man should always be on top' when he does huisbesoek?

I think this is just another example of biased cherry-picking by people who already have an established bigotry against one thing or another. It's just very helpful for them to search the bible and find scripture to support their point. They don't have an opinion about "being on the bottom" so they just couldn't care what the bible says about it. The only reason they care what the bible says about homosexuality is because they are desperately seeking a justification for their bigotry. Those Christians who don't have this homophobia claim you can reconcile scripture and homosexuality. Those who don't, say you can't, and hence homosexuality is evil.

A good way to highlight this is point out that they ignore some quite-telling bits about David and Jonathan. Even though that whole story is rife with indications that they were gay, the true homophobe will claim that nowhere does it blankly STATE that they were gay, and thus it doesn't count. They NEED to do this because God is quite a David fan, and if David were gay/bi, this would destroy their whole argument.

In the end interpretation allows the reader to think they can insert whatever they think into the bible and claim it as the "correct interpretation". It seems to me that this biased reading actually sometimes makes the reader think they've "discovered" this "truth" instead of going looking for it. That's one of the reasons that the "proper context" and "interpretation" defense apologists use falls flat on it's face. (I feel like I've committed many atrocities against grammar in this post, my apologies, because I don't know why)
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Superman
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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2011, 16:26:10 PM »

If you have really accepted your sexuality you can use homophobia to help you get thick skinned. I listen to Eminem and his homophobic statements don’t effect me anymore. The Ayn Rand Institute refuse to take an official stand that Ayn Rand was wrong about homosexuality. But now I have accepted it and shift the good from the bad. So I guess that homophobia can be everywhere. The problem comes when people want to initiate force against the gay community. Homophobia is dangerous and can kill.
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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2011, 16:48:27 PM »

thus why i support Pride every year I can.  It's not about moffies and letties walking the streets and making a spectacle.  It's about awareness.  And support.
There are (I'm sure) some kind of school involvement with race-integration and getting kids not be racist.  surely getting kids not to be homophobic must be part and parcel of, i dont know, sex-ed?
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2011, 16:56:44 PM »

Considering that my education included "masturbation is degrading". I would say sex-ed is rather behind the times. (at least it was for me)
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beLIEf
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« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2011, 20:00:12 PM »

Wow I can't believe they not only thought it, but published it. Amazing in the worst possible way. How do they not get incarcerated under some mental health act?! Roman Catholics out of all the godsquad?! So is Satan interfering with your homosexual paedophile priests also?! Interesting then that the age of consent in the vatican is still 12...
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Superman
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« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2011, 20:50:18 PM »

Perhaps we could classify homophobia as a severe personality disorder. We could also look into seeing if shock treatment will help alleviate this disorder.  Grin
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« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2011, 07:07:55 AM »

A good way to highlight this is point out that they ignore some quite-telling bits about David and Jonathan. Even though that whole story is rife with indications that they were gay
Hmmmm, I think you need to expand on the indications that he was gay.  There's plenty of evidence that he was heterosexual--Bathsheba, loads of concubines (I think it was Absolom who went in unto David's concubines; it was considered quite rude in those days to go in unto your Dad's concubines) and so on.  There is talk of "love" between David and Jonathan, but no solid indication that it was sexual.
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Faerie
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« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2011, 07:13:04 AM »

Considering that my education included "masturbation is degrading". I would say sex-ed is rather behind the times. (at least it was for me)

Really? Degrading how? Sheesh, I've been giving my boys condoms in order to save my sheets and towels since they were around 14 or so. Although not surprising really, I recall in my pre-nuptial classes with a Methodist minister (we had to attend something like six sessions to prepare us for marriage - I was 19 with a bun in the oven), that I should never allow my husband to have to take a hand to himself as its my duty to ensure he is always satisfied, even back then I was like WTF?

My best friend since I was 16 is gay, back then it was an even bigger sin and he was horribly assaulted a few times in the army, he eventually snapped and shot his corporal with a rifle, he was dishonourbly discharged and allowed to go home after a stint in hospital, a cop-out from the army at that point of time as they knew what led up to this event, to this day the man will not put his lips to red meat and in particular mince and sausages - I'll leave it up to the imagination to what transpired.

As Superman noted though, you develop a thick skin, or perhaps you just accept yourself as you mature, he is openly gay now, involved with a great guy, and completely at peace with himself. He is godfather to my sons and had an active role in their lives, he's the one that helped with the basic sex education when they got to the questioning age (I was still a single mom at that point of time), its because of him that my boys have such a naughty sense of humour.

The irony though, he is a staunch catholic and attend a gay-friendly church somewhere in town.
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Lilli
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« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2011, 10:57:54 AM »

thus why i support Pride every year I can.  It's not about moffies and letties walking the streets and making a spectacle.  It's about awareness.  And support. There are (I'm sure) some kind of school involvement with race-integration and getting kids not be racist.  surely getting kids not to be homophobic must be part and parcel of, i dont know, sex-ed?
Awareness of a group of people's struggle for equal rights, not to be discriminated against, not to be beaten up because of... whatever reason. Sure, I get that. But I have absolutely no desire to be "aware" of how any person (other than the person I want to sleep with, of course) has sex. It's just none of my business, or anybody else's. Does that make me a homophobe? Because I don't want to know?
The irony though, he is a staunch catholic and attend a gay-friendly church somewhere in town.
Just proves the earlier point - you can argue just about ANY point using extracts from the bible. It's just probably not going to be a great argument because 1) The argument will be based on a book written by a bunch of old guys wearing sheets a thousand years ago (also these guys actually thought god was talking to them... I'm not sure how well-diagnosed mental illness was back then, but schizophrenia?). 2) The argument will be based on a book that has been translated so many times the original meaning has gotten completely lost. 3) There are quite a few "holy books" doing the rounds, very often containing contradictory statements, and its pretty hard to argue that my holy book is more holy than the next person's. (This list can be added to indefinitely)
PS - I don't really have a holy book.
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« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2011, 10:58:25 AM »

The controversial Mar Saba document ("Secret Gospel of Mark" by M Smith ) as well as Mark 14:51-52 would seem to suggest that Jesus consorted with young boys. The raising of Lazarus is quoted in the Mar Saba document as:
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And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, 'Son of David, have mercy on me.' But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan.

Mark 14 51-52
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14:51 And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:
14:52 And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2011, 11:51:49 AM »

A good way to highlight this is point out that they ignore some quite-telling bits about David and Jonathan. Even though that whole story is rife with indications that they were gay

Hmmmm, I think you need to expand on the indications that he was gay.  There's plenty of evidence that he was heterosexual--Bathsheba, loads of concubines (I think it was Absolom who went in unto David's concubines; it was considered quite rude in those days to go in unto your Dad's concubines) and so on.  There is talk of "love" between David and Jonathan, but no solid indication that it was sexual.


There are points where David and Jonathan kiss and profess a love greater than that of any woman. Also Saul (David's dad) chucks a spear at Jonathan in anger over their love for each other. I think there especially it's clear that Saul is seeing what I am thinking, and Jonathan flees in fear of being killed by Saul. Saul was this upset about his son's "pal"? He also accuses David of being confused over his "mother's nakedness". What exactly that means can't be certain, but it seems pretty clear to me he's not talking about a platonic relationship. IMHO there's plenty to infer the two were "more than friends", and like I said it's not EXPLICITLY stated outright that they were lovers. It's just that the whole story is highly suggestive.

More relevant passages and references are here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Jonathan#Modern_interpretations
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