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Monuments

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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2015, 20:16:31 PM »

En, as ek mag vra, wat sal jou die meeste raak: die verwydering van 'n museumuitstalling onder druk van 'n groep geafronteerde christen fundamentaliste, of die verwydering van 'n publieke standbeeld vir politieke redes? En as daar wel 'n verskil is, is dit as gevolg van die verskillende doele soos jy hierbo verduidelik het: objetief vs subjektief?

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Mefiante
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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2015, 21:24:48 PM »

Verskoon my dat ek na Engels oorslaan, ek vrees my Afrikaans sal onvoldoende wees.

I disdain wanton destructive behaviour when the only aim is to destroy (rather than to make way for something better).  Generally speaking, I think the destruction of a work of art such as a statue or sculpture would disturb me more because the expression of its essential meaning is unique, making the destruction more directedly personal.  In comparison, a museum exhibit merely seeks to portray a fact or clarify an explanation through a visualisation of it, and attacking the visualisation leaves that fact or explanation entirely untouched.  The museum exhibit can be recreated without any irrecoverable loss, which is unlikely in the case of a statue.

There is also a significant subjective contextual prioritisation that is to be considered.  Think of museum exhibits in Ken Ham’s Creation Museum vs. a statue of Thomas Jefferson vs. exhibits in the Natural History Museum vs. a statue of Joseph Stalin.  Different individuals will react differently, depending on their own personal preferences.

For what it’s worth, I think the present fracas about statues in SA is symptomatic of something deeper and far more disturbing:  Social polarisation as a result of growing discontent about this government’s predictable and ongoing failure to deliver on its extravagant promises of the past.  The only winners will be those occupying seats of social, political and/or economic power.

'Luthon64
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2015, 23:18:49 PM »

Is daar vir jou waarde in die beelde van aapmense wat in museums uitgestal word

Ek heg nie enige emosie aan beide nie. As die beelde van aapmense in die museum verbrand word kan hulle volgende week deur nuwes vervang word, want nie ek of enigiemand anders heg emosionele waarde daaraan nie. Maar as dit by standbeelde kom, dan skielik is die emosies hoog, klaardenkbaar want mense heg 'n deel van hulle identiteit (ten goede of slegte) aan hierdie beelde.... Let wel, nie die persoonlikheid nie, aan die beeld self.

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en indien wel, hoe verskil sulke beelde dan wesenlik van enige ander beeld wat ten doel het om die mens aan sy geskiedenis herinner?

PRESIES! Maar soos jy kan aflei uit die verduideliking hierbo, dalk nie soos wat jy bedoel nie.
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brianvds
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2015, 04:22:24 AM »

Is daar vir jou waarde in die beelde van aapmense wat in museums uitgestal word, en indien wel, hoe verskil sulke beelde dan wesenlik van enige ander beeld wat ten doel het om die mens aan sy geskiedenis herinner?

Die aapmense was waarskynlik aansienlik meer ordentlik as Rhodes. :-)
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brianvds
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2015, 04:40:21 AM »

I disdain wanton destructive behaviour when the only aim is to destroy (rather than to make way for something better).  Generally speaking, I think the destruction of a work of art such as a statue or sculpture would disturb me more because the expression of its essential meaning is unique, making the destruction more directedly personal.  In comparison, a museum exhibit merely seeks to portray a fact or clarify an explanation through a visualisation of it, and attacking the visualisation leaves that fact or explanation entirely untouched.  The museum exhibit can be recreated without any irrecoverable loss, which is unlikely in the case of a statue.

Indeed, though I am not sure the plan is to destroy the statues. Only to move them somewhere else. I feel the same way about statues of Lenin or Saddam: they were works of art and it is a pity they were wantonly pulled down.

But I do not mind at all if they move them somewhere else. Especially Rhodes, who for may people surely would be the equivalent of a statue to Hitler in Berlin.

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For what it’s worth, I think the present fracas about statues in SA is symptomatic of something deeper and far more disturbing:  Social polarisation as a result of growing discontent about this government’s predictable and ongoing failure to deliver on its extravagant promises of the past.  The only winners will be those occupying seats of social, political and/or economic power.

Yup; they cannot have a middle class house and car, so now they take it out on a few statues. The, er, pigeons are coming home to roost now for the ANC government...

Of course the whole thing also brings into play the question of "being proud of your heritage." I am not proud of my heritage, because I played no part in it. Perhaps what people mean is not so much that they are personally proud of the achievements of the people portrayed in public statues as that they intensely identify with those people and what they stood for.

Now I find that in most cases, I do not feel any such intense identification either. We tend to commemorate frickin' militarists and politicians in statues. I would say that I do intensely identify with the heritage of the western world, but what I identify with is the very best of western culture, not some of the blots on its history, or its petty party politics. Thus I prefer statues of Beethoven or Einstein.

Thus I would suggest that in South Africa we erect statues to people whom everyone can identify with. It is of course true that thus far we have not exactly produced a Beethoven or Einstein yet. Still, South Africa has produced a whole host of scientists, artists, writers, musicians and social workers, of all races, that are worthy of being remembered.

Alas, I can guarantee you that when the ANC government redresses the balance in public statues, they'll do so by having third rate sculptors cast yet more statues of controversial politicians. At my and your expense.

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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2015, 07:01:48 AM »

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Alas, I can guarantee you that when the ANC government redresses the balance in public statues, they'll do so by having third rate sculptors cast yet more statues of controversial politicians.
That will end like the street names. Here in Middelburg Fontein street, apart from an Afrikaans word, not political at all, became Samora Machel street. Louis Botha statute replaced by a Robert McBride one? Then we will have the names and monuments changed with every government change. No, wait, the ANC is going to be in charge till Jesus come. Maybe that is not so bad, they might think a bit more about whether the person will stand the test of time.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2015, 07:13:36 AM »

Thank you Mefiante and Boogiemonster for your thoughs on my question. I hoped to find out if it is reasonable to attach more sentimental or emotional value to one type of "monument" than another, but it seems more complex than the mere aim (intention) of the work, and indeed for the reasons you have kindly pointed out.

Rigil

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2015, 13:24:57 PM »

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Majin
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« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2015, 00:04:24 AM »

The defacement of Statues is a political diversion. Note too that people feel strongly about statues of their so called role models, you can almost say it is a clever tactic designed to divide people instead of having them work together...

I have noticed some anti EFF and ANC posts more then usual on facebook.
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