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My book on the shelf

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Teleological
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2010, 16:00:44 PM »

Lol, don't get all emo please  Tongue. Mind you, I might just be inclined to feel and react in the same the same way about my belief that our reality exists because of reason.
But hey, some people say they don't have beliefs, I say good luck believing themselves  Grin.
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2010, 16:07:11 PM »

Looks interesting. I wonder if the author has the courage to doubt (of course understand as well) his current atheistic metaphysical assumptions and beliefs whatever they are. In the spirit of healthy skepticism of course.


Sorry if I'm splitting hairs but shouldn't that be "current naturalistic metaphysical assumptions", since atheism isn't a worldview but non-acceptance of a particular proposition.

Either way, I think us skeptics should be willing to acknowledge/explore the assumptions underlying our worldview. Going as far as doubting them - that may make it impossible to function.

Oh, by the way, congrats Steve  Smiley
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Teleological
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2010, 16:28:57 PM »

Looks interesting. I wonder if the author has the courage to doubt (of course understand as well) his current atheistic metaphysical assumptions and beliefs whatever they are. In the spirit of healthy skepticism of course.


Sorry if I'm splitting hairs but shouldn't that be "current naturalistic metaphysical assumptions", since atheism isn't a worldview but non-acceptance of a particular proposition.

Oh, by the way, congrats Steve  Smiley
The author said he is an atheist. He did not say he was a naturalist, materialist, dualist, panpsychist or any else in particular. Just an atheist.

Either way, I think us skeptics should be willing to acknowledge/explore the assumptions underlying our worldview. Going as far as doubting them - that may make it impossible to function.
I think that is exactly the point the author is trying to make. He had the courage to doubt his beliefs that in a way made it possible for him to function, yet he still doubted them. And in his view, his courage to doubt these beliefs lead him to right a book that he feels should help others who are in a similar situation. Maybe you will also have the courage to doubt your beliefs one day? Get the book man, learn what courage is  Grin.
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2010, 16:33:21 PM »

Lol, don't get all emo please 

hmmm. obviously waaaay to old to know what emo means.
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Julian
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2010, 18:05:13 PM »

Looks interesting. I wonder if the author has the courage to doubt (of course understand as well) his current atheistic metaphysical assumptions and beliefs whatever they are. In the spirit of healthy skepticism of course.


Sorry if I'm splitting hairs but shouldn't that be "current naturalistic metaphysical assumptions", since atheism isn't a worldview but non-acceptance of a particular proposition.

Oh, by the way, congrats Steve  Smiley
The author said he is an atheist. He did not say he was a naturalist, materialist, dualist, panpsychist or any else in particular. Just an atheist.
True, but my point was more about whether the assumptions underly the lack of belief itself (atheism), or whether the assumptions underly the worldview (naturalism, materialism etc.) that leads to that lack of belief. Again if that is too much hairsplitting for a thread about a book being on a shelf - apologies Smiley
Quote
Either way, I think us skeptics should be willing to acknowledge/explore the assumptions underlying our worldview. Going as far as doubting them - that may make it impossible to function.
I think that is exactly the point the author is trying to make. He had the courage to doubt his beliefs that in a way made it possible for him to function, yet he still doubted them. And in his view, his courage to doubt these beliefs lead him to right a book that he feels should help others who are in a similar situation. Maybe you will also have the courage to doubt your beliefs one day? Get the book man, learn what courage is  Grin.
Theistic beliefs may help you to function in some or other way, but I think that's very different from naturalistic assumptions that we all share and that allow us to function at the most basic level. ie. If you were to abandon the assumption that there is an actual reality out there and adopt the belief that all your sensory experiences were hallucinations planted in your head by aliens, it might make it difficult for you to eat, drink, find shelter etc.
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Teleological
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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2010, 18:31:53 PM »

Theistic beliefs may help you to function in some or other way, but I think that's very different from naturalistic assumptions that we all share and that allow us to function at the most basic level. ie. If you were to abandon the assumption that there is an actual reality out there and adopt the belief that all your sensory experiences were hallucinations planted in your head by aliens, it might make it difficult for you to eat, drink, find shelter etc.
I wouldn't call it "naturalistic assumptions" or "theistic assumptions" or "pantheistic assumptions". It is just common sense rationalist realism.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 18:47:18 PM by Teleological » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2010, 19:08:23 PM »

my belief that our reality exists because of reason.

I'll ask once again that you explain this strange notion of yours. How does reason give us reality? Step-by-step for us doubters please.
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« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2010, 19:11:03 PM »

Theistic beliefs may help you to function in some or other way, but I think that's very different from naturalistic assumptions that we all share and that allow us to function at the most basic level. ie. If you were to abandon the assumption that there is an actual reality out there and adopt the belief that all your sensory experiences were hallucinations planted in your head by aliens, it might make it difficult for you to eat, drink, find shelter etc.
I wouldn't call it "naturalistic assumptions" or "theistic assumptions" or "pantheistic assumptions". It is just common sense rationalist realism.

And having a naturalist worldview is the same as being a common sense rationalist realist?
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Teleological
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« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2010, 19:51:29 PM »

Theistic beliefs may help you to function in some or other way, but I think that's very different from naturalistic assumptions that we all share and that allow us to function at the most basic level. ie. If you were to abandon the assumption that there is an actual reality out there and adopt the belief that all your sensory experiences were hallucinations planted in your head by aliens, it might make it difficult for you to eat, drink, find shelter etc.

I wouldn't call it "naturalistic assumptions" or "theistic assumptions" or "pantheistic assumptions". It is just common sense rationalist realism.


And having a naturalist worldview is the same as being a common sense rationalist realist?

I definitely would not argue that way. Read:
The Disenchanted Naturalist’s Guide to Reality

my belief that our reality exists because of reason.


I'll ask once again that you explain this strange notion of yours. How does reason give us reality? Step-by-step for us doubters please.

It is kind of the opposite to what you think is happening in your brain ie. "shit happens". Perhaps try understanding the argument from reason and the implications of rejecting it...
Better yet, read up a bit on intentionality.
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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2010, 20:00:08 PM »

It is kind of the opposite to what you think is happening in your brain ie. "shit happens". Perhaps try understanding the argument from reason and the implications of rejecting it...
Better yet, read up a bit on intentionality.

If that piffle is the best you can do to explain your world view, you are even more half-witted than I had thought.

On intentionality, have you read any Being and Time yet, hey Mr. Dasein?
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Teleological
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« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2010, 20:28:35 PM »

It is kind of the opposite to what you think is happening in your brain ie. "shit happens". Perhaps try understanding the argument from reason and the implications of rejecting it...
Better yet, read up a bit on intentionality.

If that piffle is the best you can do to explain your world view, you are even more half-witted than I had thought.
Ah, there is that unsubstantiated cuteness again lol (been taking a few lessons from old irreverend there?). Ok, if you say so matey, then again, according to you "shit just happened" in your brain so I don't think even you take yourself seriously  Evil.

On intentionality, have you read any Being and Time yet, hey Mr. Dasein?
Nope, perhaps you can give your impressions and what you found to be the most interesting in the book. Must have been boring for you since Heidegger had a Platonic and neo-Platonic ring to his ideas and project... or so I have read somewhere  Tongue. And Aristotle had a big influence on him as well. That can't sit well with you lol...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 22:55:33 PM by Teleological » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2010, 20:33:04 PM »

my belief that our reality exists because of reason.

I'll ask once again that you explain this strange notion of yours. How does reason give us reality? Step-by-step for us doubters please.

Yeah, this is kind of strange... If reason preceded reality, where did it take place? And what was there to reason about? Is reason therefore non-real? Not sure I would trust non-real reason.
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« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2010, 21:05:11 PM »

Wow! This thread has certainly sparked some debate - cool.

Actually no. Atheism is the absence of belief in God, hence atheism and not theism. You still have many other beliefs that you can have the courage to doubt. For example, you believe you have a mind and that you believe you are the author of your own book. Ever had the courage to doubt that? And why should you quite frankly. Then again, why should those who believe that their reality exists because of reason have the courage to doubt that belief.

You can run from your metaphysical assumptions but you can't hide, don't worry, they will become evident sooner than later, just have the courage to doubt them... Tongue
Obviously atheism is the absence of belief in God. I assumed that the people on this forum would know that since we have had HUGE discussions on this very issue recently. Perhaps in your case I should also not make the assumption that intellectualism necessarily implies intelligence (hehe  Evil).

Actually, simplicity takes a lot more intelligence than complex pseudo-intellectual philosophical mumbo-jumbo IMHO. My book is not aimed at intellectual people because my target market is intelligent people - i.e. those who ask honest questions and expect real answers. I don't beat around the bush with crap about whether we are products of our own reason, or whatever. I get straight to the point in a practical and easily understood way.

We live in a society where Christianity abounds and questioning one's faith is considered taboo. Sooo ... the courage I'm talking about means taking the strength of character to stand up against the accepted norm of religion and find out if it's all actually true. Even at a glance, Christianity comes out as complete bullshit, and my book points out the many ways of proving and coping with this fact.
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« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2010, 21:13:45 PM »

Sounds a bit like quote mining there, or do you have the necessary training to put verses into context so that the readers can better understand the history and proper academic/intellectual interpretat... oh wait, the book is not for intellectuals, my bad. Oh well, I think it has all the potential to sell as well as any of Dawkins' books, let's hope for your part you have a good publicist.
How much training does one need to point out that God Himself kills a one-week old baby to punish King David for murder and adultery, and give the entire passage as a reference? How much "proper academic" training do I need to give the BuyBull verses for all the other shit like rejoicing when smashing babies to death, genocide, slavery, incest (Lot and his daughters)?

Any idiot can read those verses and see what they mean - you only need an "academic" or "intellectual" approach to try and justify them. FYI though, I did qualify as minister and spent some years working as a missionary. I have studied the Bible many times, and in some cases, in the original languages.
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« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2010, 21:22:42 PM »

Quote
I definitely would not argue that way. Read:
The Disenchanted Naturalist’s Guide to Reality


Interesting article, but I don't really see your point. Are you saying that you can be a rationalist and still believe there is an ultimate purpose, whereas this option is not available to a naturalist?
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