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Sarkozy to submit bill banning Islamic face veils

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Jane of the Jungle
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« on: April 24, 2010, 13:04:21 PM »

French leader believes full veil ‘hurts the dignity of women,’

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PARIS - French President Nicolas Sarkozy on Wednesday ordered legislation that would ban women from wearing Islamic veils that hide the face in the street and other public places.....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36686496


Another step in the right direction  Wink
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Mefiante
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« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2010, 13:35:57 PM »

Allāhu Akbar! Roll Eyes

'Luthon64
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Jane of the Jungle
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2010, 19:41:23 PM »

Allāhu Akbar! Roll Eyes

'Luthon64


Is that Islamic for Halle-F***en-Lujah?  Smiley
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Watookal
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2010, 10:36:24 AM »

It would be intersting to see if this will reduce the number of ninjas on the street, or if it will actually result in more unveiled Muslim woman. If I were only allowed in the street in a full veil I would prefer that to being not allowed to go into the public anymore. I suspect most of these women don't have a big choice, and this bill will reduce their choice to zero.

This reminds me of the recent bare breats march. My favourite part is: "But, she said, the picture-taking was particularly upsetting." I mean really, me being a cave man, the more you show the more I'm going to look.

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buka001
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2010, 09:53:02 AM »

I agree that this is a positive move for equal rights for women, however I feel that this could be insulting towards the general Muslim faith.

Radical Muslims will see this as a direct assault on the belief and ideals of the Muslim faith, by the "evil" western countries. Their religious indoctrination will not allow for them to see it as an issue of equal rights for women, but as a persuction of their religion.

At a time when tensions between Muslim countries and Western countries is quite high, I feel that this decision could have far ranging repurcussion in terms of safety and security in these countries.

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Mefiante
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2010, 11:50:59 AM »

Of course hard-line Islamists won’t like it and shout seven sorts of “foul!” about religious freedom and such.  But I don’t see any reason whatsoever why the French should bow to this kind of pressure.  After all, it’s their country and the Muslims living there are mostly ex-colonials from North and West Africa.  Nor do I see that the French, who more than any other European country usually do what they set out to do irrespective of anyone else’s criticisms, would heed Islamists’ complaints.

As I understand it, the suggestion of a legislated banning of the veils in public took its cue mostly from Muslim schoolgirls and public servants wearing them in defiance of existing rules forbidding the wearing of them in those roles, and it should not be hard to see why a veil is inappropriate for them.  Since the rules were being broken pretty much with impunity, the first step towards rectifying the problem is to strengthen the rules’ “bite” by formally legislating them.

But to my mind perhaps the most important reason for going ahead with this initiative is to make very clear the message that religious conduct is as much subject to secular regulation as anything else, and to set a telling precedent to such effect.  It is an essential step towards dismantling the common conviction that religion must automatically get special favours.  Because if the French bend over backwards and retract the proposal due to being pressured into it by Muslims, then religion ― once again ― becomes a political tool, which is highly unlikely to happen in the birthplace of Liberté, Égalité et Fraternité.  Furthermore, if such a retraction for reasons of pressure were to happen, Islamists will be all the more vocally forceful the next time they don’t like something, whereas if the banning of the veils goes through, they’ll be a bit clearer about just where their religious liberties end ― namely where they impinge on the laws of the land.  The latter cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be a bad thing.

While the proposal is bound to raise tensions (and which legal bill doesn’t do this in at least some quarters?), the wider principles it carries with it are too important to be sacrificed on the altar of expediency and cosiness.

'Luthon64
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Brian
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« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2010, 11:53:40 AM »

A friend of mine (female) lectured in an Islamic country and she had enormous problems to a) be accepted as a woman teaching men and b) establishing the identity of her female students, especially during examinations! Away with the veil, Ovey!
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Julian
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 16:26:58 PM »

I'm not sure this is at all a good idea. I think it will just accentuate religious divisions and do bugger all for the equality of Muslim women. I really don't like the idea of a government telling people what they can and cannot wear. Surely if this there was no religious aspect to this we would all be opposed to it? I mean how would we feel if a law like this were applied to Amish women and their bonnets?
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Jane of the Jungle
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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 06:51:34 AM »

I really don't like the idea of a government telling people what they can and cannot wear.



Yeah unfortunately it is true, because some governments just don’t know where to draw the line, but not respecting their followers and taking away their rights and choices are much worse in the countries Muslim women originated from.  They have immigrated to France and no law stops them to return, if this is new law is unacceptable for them.  When I see stuff like this, I sommer get pissed of again:

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In Islam, there is no such concept of free will, especially with respect to women folk. They are treated as mere commodities in the hands of men. They are battered, molested, killed when they ask for freedom. To make the situation worse, women have given no say in their own marriage. Girls less than ten years are given away to men over fifty years!

Do you expect women in Islamic countries to breathe?

There are no such laws in Saudi Arabia that define the minimum age for marriage. Although a woman’s permission is legally required, but that’s a different story that some marriage officials do not think it’s necessary to ask them.

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Do muslim women in western society have a choice?
Morsal Obeidi was just 16, she wanted to live like the other girls in Germany. Free to make choices. But she paid dearly for aspiring to be free, her brother stabbed her 20 times. This honour killing right in the heart of Germany has sparked huge debate about muslim women, the choices they have and they don’t have. And whether at all they can opt to walk away from the family bindings.

It must be really difficult to live closed life in a free world. The children of religious minority groups can never really get integrated into western society. Their homes and their religious bindings often place them in a dilemma of choices. They rarely think of escaping from home and bindings. Their upbringing teaches them not to abandon family and family values at any cost. The family name, family honour, their own religion and society are of supreme importance. Defying parents and religious law is never tolerated. If some of them do dare, they end up getting punished.

Asserting one’s own religion, one’s own culture and value is important. But not giving freedom to step out to explore the world and live life on one’s own terms is a kind of oppression. Modern society will see more such attempts to crossover traditional barriers and boundaries to see the world beyond.


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Iraq has been in the news ever since 2001. With the country being in the state of a perpetual war, women and children suffer the most, both, in social and economic aspects. Amidst such a climate, the atmosphere in Iraq is not very friendly, especially for women, who face threats not only from the militants and frenetic gangs who go looting Iraq, but also from their own family. The recent news of a murder of nineteen year old girl by her in-laws, just because she had an unknown number in her mobile phone, for the sake of honor, shows how blatant their idea about religion is. All the more, since Sharia law is incorporated in the constitution, the government is only able to sit and watch such crimes. This is true not only of Iraq, but many other middle-east countries.

http://www.themuslimwoman.org/

This new law is about veils, but overall I think it starts with allowing women equality to the rights men never before and still not think them worthy of.  This could also offer girls like mentioned above an opportunity to start a new life in a country like France without the fear of being killed!  
I think Muslims in France would be upset about this for a while but would have to accept it in due time.  If a country consider basic human rights as their guideline in decision making and try to help people, I can’t see the problem with that.  Also, I don’t think they would have felt the need to interfere, if there wasn’t a good reason for it.  
A few months ago I’ve read an article on Muslim leaders who told Muslim men around the globe, to obey the countries laws in which they stay, if it is against polygamy and I didn’t see them throwing a tantrum about that!  
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cyghost
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 07:30:35 AM »

Less ninjas is a very good thing.
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Brian
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 08:18:56 AM »

Let's not forget that when westerners visit any of the Islamic countries, you are required to conform to their dress code although a full bhurka is not required.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2010, 08:39:16 AM »

Following on JotJ’s latest post, the real tragedy in all of this is that Muslims have been brainwashed from infancy into unquestioning acceptance of their traditional gender roles.  Very few of them will reject these roles as no longer appropriate in the 21st century.  They will inculcate them in their own children because that is the way their parents and grandparents have done it, and so the myth will continue.  That is, it’s not about any conscious desire to deny the right to preserve people’s cultural heritage, but rather about disrupting in a small way the cycle of perpetuation of something undesirable that is being carried forward by its memetic momentum.  In the case of bad genes, we don’t hesitate to attempt eradicating or lessening their ill effects, so why should a bad meme suddenly be exempt?  And, as said on a prior occasion, the picture’s a good deal bigger than just the wearing, or not, of a veil in public.  That’s why I remain unconvinced that this proposed bill is a bad one, even if the real good of it will only come in the longer term.  If nothing else, it’s a meaningful start.  Were it not so, it wouldn’t be half as controversial as it is.

'Luthon64
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Faerie
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« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2010, 10:11:58 AM »

I'm in favour of it, however, whether its going to make an iota of a difference I sincerely doubt.  We have similar issues locally, late last year in the KZN midlands we had a spate of murders because the women had the odasity to wear pants. This of-course is more a cultural issue than a religious one, but the principle stays the same. Women, regardless of all our feminist notions and shouting for equality, are and will remain the "weaker" sex, and not everybody is in a position to leave their culture and go make a life elsewhere, especially in cultures (religious or otherwise), where education for women seems unnecessary.

My own case in point (if I may be so bold to state an example), coming from a fundemental xtian home, my father wanted me to leave school in Std 8, my mother pleaded a case of not wanting me at home all the time as they did not have a suitable husband in mind yet (yes, this in the mid-80's), I managed to complete my matric and was granted permission to start working with a deacon at our church at one of the major banks. I was fortunate, because I had a steady job, and one to boot that was willing to pay for my studies, I had opportunities, which I grabbed with both hands. It did not prevent me from being married off at age 19 and having my first child at 20, I was 27 when I finally finished my studies and divorced my husband and in the process the rest of my family. I had to leave EVERYTHING behind, my culture, my religion, my parents/brothers/social structure.

Its not easy, and for most women in these situations, not possible.  I was lucky, I had a job - and that was the only thing that saved me from a very unhappy subservient life.
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Brian
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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 15:15:03 PM »

You're so right! The era or domination of males over females should be banned outright and women should be seen as human (not too long ago this was not the case in Christian western society) and having the same rights and responsibilities as males. I was severely reprimanded some years back by a group of black african males (East Africa) (excuse the racist context, but that's the way it happened) for daring to suggest that the paternalistic cultures of Africa should change. I don't even want to go to clitoral circumscision etc as methods to subordinate women to men...(I am a straight male)
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StevoMuso
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2010, 08:49:11 AM »

Its not easy, and for most women in these situations, not possible.  I was lucky, I had a job - and that was the only thing that saved me from a very unhappy subservient life.
As a musician I play at a lot of weddings, and fairly often sit through the church service too. I did quite a conservative Afrikaans wedding the other day and the Domenie went on and on about how the woman must submit to the husband, who is head of the home etc. etc. ad nausium. I was shocked. What also shocked me was the nodding congregation - nodding in agreement (not falling asleep). There seemed to be universal agreement with the sermon - which was old-school male-dominated bullocks. And this was 2009!

Faerie - you GO girl! And you seriously ROCK for escaping that little lot of wankers. Well done - it cannot have been easy.
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