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The love affair with violence and censorship continues...

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BoogieMonster
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« on: September 28, 2016, 17:17:24 PM »

Today, things got a little out of hand at Rhodes.

As police woman explains towards the end, students were attempting to pelt a public road with rocks and glass, and the result is a lot of rubber bullets fired throughout the video. There's little context for one person at the start getting shot. Not sure what's up with that... but at the end bystanders are clearly explained by the cops that they're being protected and should rather not complain about that fact.

But what I do find telling is someone like Eisebius Mckaiser's reaction to this. Pay attention to the comments. He's actively saying he won't listen to dissent, the cops are wrong, period, and damn your facts. Do these people live on some other planet I don't? Has humanity completely forgotten how violence works?

... and this shit is becoming universal by now: Exactly the same thing is happening in the states: Dude refuses to listen to cops, makes a threatening move, gets shot, cops are publicly flailed in the press, everyone now hates cops even more, violence ensues, lather, rinse, repeat.

What ever happened to telling your kids: "Violence will beget violence"? Is this really such a difficult concept? Of course, the public outcry just emboldens these youths that they are doing what's just and right, and then they grow up to run the place. DISGRACEFUL.

Where the freck do we go from here? I sure as hell hope this regressive leftism is peaking cause the world will be in ruins soon enough if this rampant stupidity continues.

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Faerie
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2016, 18:08:14 PM »

Im with you, but I shudder at the thought of ending up on the other side of this spectrum. A Nanny State. And looking at the DA run community whatsapp group Im on, this is a reality we face. They actively encourage people to report their neighbours for infringements, going as far as posting pics of people watering their gardens...  which is worse... I honestly cannot tell as both scenarios rule with fear.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2016, 19:20:44 PM »

What tickles me about these student protests is their attendant unfailing descent into mindless savagery and demolition—and this from the country’s supposed aspiring intelligentsia.  The argument that their grievances, legitimate or otherwise, won’t be earnestly considered unless they run amok rings quite hollow now that they’ve forcefully made that point several times.  Now would be the time to suspend such nonsense and try to negotiate a solution, yet they continue their scorched earth insanity, regardless.  And not far behind is their uncompromising stance where “compromise” means “give us everything we want unconditionally right now, or else.”  All of this adds up to a dull-witted strategy that will likely quite seriously cripple the country’s already ailing tertiary education system.

The self-styled visionaries are wearing self-styled blinkers.

'Luthon64
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2016, 21:41:35 PM »

Im with you, but I shudder at the thought of ending up on the other side of this spectrum. A Nanny State.

What blows my mind is that both ends of the "spectrum" are a nanny state. In fact calling it a spectrum is a bit of a misnomer. There is no "right" in SA. Centrist and Conservative views are basically all but wiped out. We ONLY have liberals. and yes that should scare the living bejeesus out of everyone.
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brianvds
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2016, 05:06:57 AM »

... and this shit is becoming universal by now: Exactly the same thing is happening in the states: Dude refuses to listen to cops, makes a threatening move, gets shot, cops are publicly flailed in the press, everyone now hates cops even more, violence ensues, lather, rinse, repeat.

Mind you, American cops do every now and then just summarily execute people, shoot kids, taser old ladies in wheelchairs, etc. etc. But the public there is barking up the wrong tree - there is little to zero evidence that the cops are more likely to shoot black suspects than white ones. Their cops have just been militarized, and are overly paranoid and aggressive in a general sort of way.

Neither the public nor the media there look at cases on an individual basis though. Whether the cops are hailed or condemned for shooting a suspect depends on whatever the fad of the moment is, and the skin pigmentation of the people involved, not the evidence in each case.
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brianvds
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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2016, 05:16:50 AM »

What tickles me about these student protests is their attendant unfailing descent into mindless savagery and demolition—and this from the country’s supposed aspiring intelligentsia.

Heh, we asked my landlady's ten year-old adopted daughter whether she thinks this wanton destruction of infrastructure by the fees-must-fall crowd is a good idea.

"No," she says. "It will mean fees will have to rise to pay for all the damage."

So the country's future intellectual elite is on a lower level of neurological functioning than a ten year-old girl. :-)

It's not that they don't have any point at all. Apparently, if the government simply stopped wasting money there would be enough to give everyone access to free university studies, and I can understand the frustration of students who do well in their first year and then have to quit simply because they can't afford further study. I am all in favour of bursaries for deserving students.

But this savagery is not just pointless, it is entirely counter-productive - the students actually pretty much depend on broad public opinion here, and this is not the way to win friends and influence the right people.

Incidentally, I have long wondered why a university degree is such an all-or-nothing affair. I would think one part of the solution to this and many other problems would be to award certificates/diplomas/whatevers for every year passed. Surely someone who passed his first year of university studies is better educated than someone who only has matric? And yet, such people are probably actually less likely to get a job, because the taint of failure clings to them (when in fact perhaps it's just that their finances ran out).
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brianvds
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2016, 05:22:56 AM »

Im with you, but I shudder at the thought of ending up on the other side of this spectrum. A Nanny State.

What blows my mind is that both ends of the "spectrum" are a nanny state. In fact calling it a spectrum is a bit of a misnomer. There is no "right" in SA. Centrist and Conservative views are basically all but wiped out. We ONLY have liberals. and yes that should scare the living bejeesus out of everyone.

God preserve us from the liberals (who nowadays are frequently everything but liberal). When someone in the ANC suggested some years ago that marijuana be legalized, it was the DA that jumped on his head. It was right there that they finally lost my vote. At least in the national elections; on municipal level I still supported them simply because they tend to be better at administering things than the ANC, but already I am beginning to have some doubts...

Alas, for all its ideals of liberty and tolerance, liberalism frequently descends into politically correct fascism, feminazis, racist witch hunts etc. etc. There are authoritarians all over the political spectrum.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2016, 09:02:03 AM »

Am I the only one noticing how we've made tertiary education the new matric?

Nobody in my family ever attended uni before me (that was a lot of expectations let me tell you). And for this exact reason: They could never afford it. The fact that I could go was the result of at least (by my count) 2 generations before's efforts. It took all that time to amass the wealth necessary to SCRAPE me through university. None of them, nor me, ever actually expected such a feat to be possible at all. University was where rich people and geniuses on grants went. It wasn't for "little 'ol us", and for all those people that was OK and they did generally well with their lives anyway.

These kids though, they see it a bit differently don't they? A university degree is their birthright, the state's duty to provide FOR ALL, and somehow my duty to pay for. Every time I look at the news these days I'm stunned by the entitlement and lack of perspective. I'm blown away by the arrogance, dismayed at the lack of responsibility. Even in this case: "I throw rocks, as is my right, don't you dare try to stop me".

Yes, they do feel aggrieved. They do feel hard done by. And, in a way, I agree. Having the state hand out stuff to them from the moment they were born to the moment they graduated high-school, our state has stunted their development to the point that they cannot conceive of doing anything for themselves. And that's a catastrophe.
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brianvds
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2016, 11:31:56 AM »

All over the world, a B degree pretty much is the new matric. Without it you struggle. It's a good question whether this is really necessary. Well, here in South Africa perhaps, because a matric certificate doesn't guarantee basic literacy and numeracy. Only way to tell if someone can read is if he has a university degree.

But I wonder whether something else is at work here, and this is something I have long wondered about.

Suppose you start a college to educate people who were formerly not educated, say, you award diplomas in gardening and domestic work. Well, from the employer's point of view, someone with such a diploma is likely worth more than someone without, so before long, it becomes almost impossible to get a job as domestic worker or gardener unless you have a post school certificate in those fields.

In other words, I wonder whether in this way society unconsciously conspires to force people to undergo all manner of education and training that is actually quite unnecessary and could have been done on the job. From what I hear, people with a university degree decidedly stand a better chance to get employed, but I'm not sure they necessarily get employed in the field they studied. It would not surprise me at all to learn that there are thousands of supermarket cashiers with degrees in biblical studies, sociology and political science.

But if you have a supermarket, why appoint someone with matric if you can get someone with a degree, at the same salary?

Are we perhaps over-educating ourselves, quite unnecessarily? And in the meantime, while we turn out political scientists on an industrial scale, our industries can't complete projects because of a shortage of welders and plumbers and electricians, etc. etc. Everyone wants a degree; no one wants to do the actual work, but they don't want us to import Zimbabweans to do it either.

In short, huge numbers of South Africans live in an unsustainable fantasy world, that will come crashing down around them before long.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2016, 12:31:01 PM »

Poor NMMU, my own alma mater, is now truly between a rock and a hard place. It suspended classes for the time being, but is now being threatened with legal action if it does not resume its academic year soon.

In stark contrast with all this shit, attagirl!
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2016, 13:38:26 PM »

All over the world, a B degree pretty much is the new matric. Without it you struggle. It's a good question whether this is really necessary. Well, here in South Africa perhaps, because a matric certificate doesn't guarantee basic literacy and numeracy. Only way to tell if someone can read is if he has a university degree.

You'd think this would be a clue to those in charge that education is fubar.

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Suppose you start a college to educate people who were formerly not educated, say, you award diplomas in gardening and domestic work. Well, from the employer's point of view, someone with such a diploma is likely worth more than someone without, so before long, it becomes almost impossible to get a job as domestic worker or gardener unless you have a post school certificate in those fields.

Sure. Historically there have been specialist colleges for all kinds of things. Back in the day a national diploma could get you pretty far.

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From what I hear, people with a university degree decidedly stand a better chance to get employed

Supply and demand. If you start dishing degrees out they won't be worth the paper they're printed on, as you allude to later...

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but I'm not sure they necessarily get employed in the field they studied.

Depends on the field of study. Most engineers end up doing something engineering related. The humanities is where you find the most non-applied degrees imho.

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It would not surprise me at all to learn that there are thousands of supermarket cashiers with degrees in biblical studies, sociology and political science.

Quite.

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But if you have a supermarket, why appoint someone with matric if you can get someone with a degree, at the same salary?

Does the guy with the degree really stack shelves better? Or does he just grow to loathe his job, and me, and try to work me out of my position? The person with the degree, if they're actually sharp, will probably out-compete their age-peers in the supermarket simply because they are smarter to begin with. As such, making it through a '4 year degree' is indicating tenacity, hard work, and a certain level of intelligence. So it is serving it's purpose, if not directly.

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Are we perhaps over-educating ourselves, quite unnecessarily?

I don't think so. To compete in the modern world this is indeed necessary. But I would've expected the curricula of high-schools to improve, much like my matric math was not my mother's, etc. Instead we seem keen to go the other way.


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our industries can't complete projects because of a shortage of welders and plumbers and electricians, etc. etc.

Wellll, there are also the thorny issues of labour unions, bargaining councils, protracted strikes, ludicrous demands, enforced minimum wage, the difficulty firing non-performing staff, prescribed minimum benefits, mandatory BBBEE (paying workers with shares)..... Labour is pricing itself out of the market. After vicious strikes in the mining sector SA's mining companies finally decided to catch up with the rest of the world and start large-scale automation. You cannot really fault them for it, and if anything industrial skills like that are going to be in waning demand. If you watch a Tesla being built you realise industrialised labour is screwed.

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Everyone wants a degree; no one wants to do the actual work, but they don't want us to import Zimbabweans to do it either.

As I imply above, the problem is supply and demand. The industrial revolution is over in most of the world.

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In short, huge numbers of South Africans live in an unsustainable fantasy world, that will come crashing down around them before long.

It may just be that we're all living in a fantasy world. However more degrees will not solve the problem. I expect the landscape of the global economy will change radically in the next 100 years.
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Faerie
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2016, 13:47:44 PM »

on the note of employing a graduate in a traditionally "uneducated" role.  Here in the corporate world, I would not at all consider a graduate in for instance a call centre or secretarial job.  We did at one point of time, but these individuals would not last very long and tend to stick around for a couple months for the "working experience" and then duck out to a better paid job. The other observation is that the "uneducated" tend to do a better job in these roles than the "educated".
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