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US preachers lit homophobia fuse

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brianvds
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« on: March 11, 2014, 17:25:59 PM »

Having failed in America, they are now exporting their crapola all over the world...

US preachers lit homophobia fuse

http://mg.co.za/article/2014-03-06-us-preachers-lit-homophobia-fuse
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Mefiante
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2014, 17:48:57 PM »

While it’s probably true enough up to a point, it seems to me barefacedly facile to attempt pinning the blame for this travesty of Luddite lawmaking squarely on US evangelicals.  Their imprecations clearly fell on very fertile ground.  One might equally well blame Protestant and Catholic missionaries for introducing the Ugandans to Christianity in the late 19th century.

'Luthon64
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 17:50:11 PM »

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One might equally well blame Protestant and Catholic missionaries for introducing Christianity to the Ugandans in the late 19th century

And your point is?
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Mefiante
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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2014, 17:55:12 PM »

And your point is?
Simply that by far the major blame shareholders are the Ugandans themselves.

'Luthon64
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brianvds
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2014, 02:11:07 AM »

And your point is?
Simply that by far the major blame shareholders are the Ugandans themselves.

'Luthon64

Yes, this is true - there is perhaps something almost patronising in trying to shift the blame. I do find it very peculiar that the very same people who complain about the legacy of colonialism will nevertheless enthusiastically enforce Victorian mores.

We were lucky indeed in South Africa in that our constitution was written during a very brief spell of national enlightenment. It would not surprise me in the least if the likes of Zuma think that homosexuality (and who knows what else) is "un-African" and should be banned. But there is very little they can do about it now.

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Mefiante
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2014, 07:03:59 AM »

It would not surprise me in the least if the likes of Zuma think that homosexuality (and who knows what else) is "un-African" and should be banned. But there is very little they can do about it now.
Unless if by some darkly comical cosmic conspiracy they manage to garner a two-thirds or greater majority in the upcoming elections.  They will then also be able to amend our Constitution at will.  If that ever happens, we’ll truly be in the hoopla because over the past dozen years or more the ANC has increasingly shown us its autocratic tendencies.

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Mefiante
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2014, 08:09:37 AM »

And while on this topic, here’s a critical peek at SA’s 20 Year Review.  It is a large part of Zuma’s “good story” in which “There isn’t anything we could have done better”.

'Luthon64
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brianvds
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2014, 14:27:56 PM »

Unless if by some darkly comical cosmic conspiracy they manage to garner a two-thirds or greater majority in the upcoming elections.  They will then also be able to amend our Constitution at will.  If that ever happens, we’ll truly be in the hoopla because over the past dozen years or more the ANC has increasingly shown us its autocratic tendencies.

That seems unlikely at this stage. But let us pray the EFF doesn't come to power with a two thirds majority. Then us whiteys will have to EFF OFF... :-)
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2014, 14:56:50 PM »

And your point is?
Simply that by far the major blame shareholders are the Ugandans themselves.

I'm alluding to the fact that I DO equally blame the missionaries, just as I equally blame their African heritage.

I BLAMED african heritage for something?! BURN HIM!

But let us pray the EFF doesn't come to power with a two thirds majority. Then us whiteys will have to EFF OFF... :-)

This week me and majin mutually admitted the thought had been crossing both our minds... this idea that the time might be around the corner where our options will be: Leave or suffer under totalitarian communism. This is not a thought I cherish in the slightest. I'm "still here" not due to lack of options, but because I like it here.

A thought I cherish even less is leave and let my closest family suffer under totalitarian communism. However history informs me that this is the better choice, however uncomfortable it may be.

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brianvds
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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2014, 19:10:49 PM »

This week me and majin mutually admitted the thought had been crossing both our minds... this idea that the time might be around the corner where our options will be: Leave or suffer under totalitarian communism. This is not a thought I cherish in the slightest. I'm "still here" not due to lack of options, but because I like it here.

A thought I cherish even less is leave and let my closest family suffer under totalitarian communism. However history informs me that this is the better choice, however uncomfortable it may be.

At least for the moment, I am not too alarmed. In fact, the EFF is perhaps even a healthy phenomenon, seeing as it forms a legal outlet for the political aspirations of people who would otherwise be burning down public libraries etc. If the EFF wins substantial support, it may well force the government to become better at service delivery too. And last but not least, South Africa's immensely diverse ethnic and political landscape may well prevent any one leader from ever grabbing total power. In the longer run, we may well be in for an Italian style government, i.e. one corrupt and incompetent and ineffectual coalition government after the other, every nine months or so... :-)

I have had dealings with Malema's youthful supporters; they are the most pathetic, useless, spineless, undisciplined bunch of jellyfish you can imagine. Two boere with baseball bats will have the whole lot scattering like a flock of guinea fowl. So perhaps we do not have too much to fear from them.

Still, with our current education system we may well be facing a sort of intellectual apocalypse, in which absolutely everything grinds to a halt simply because there aren't enough literate people to run anything anymore. It would not surprise me if the entire western world is on the same course.

Man, I sometimes deeply sympathize with Ayn Rand... :-)
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Mefiante
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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2014, 19:19:06 PM »

I'm alluding to the fact that I DO equally blame the missionaries…
Okay, it seems I was Poed.  Tone, facial cues and other revelatory bits ( Wink ) evidently don’t carry too well over a DSL line…

Still, we live in vastly more informed times than those missionaries.

'Luthon64
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2014, 09:32:13 AM »

Man, I sometimes deeply sympathize with Ayn Rand... :-)

LOL, my first draft went something like: "My choices resemble those of Rand: Leave ..."

This is the thing, a lot of us live with the expectation that our lives won't be as rocked as those of many other people that have had to flee oppressive regimes. However some of the current rhetoric makes me contemplate, and start to come to terms with, the fact that this may indeed happen to us. I'm trying to imagine having to leave everything I own behind and starting over. Once I start to do this it doesn't seem like the end of the world, as long as we make it out OK, anything material can be re-acquired.

Quote from: Mefiante
Still, we live in vastly more informed times than those missionaries

Do we? I struggle to believe that we do. (<- This is not a factual claim it is my sense of the world)
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Brian
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2014, 11:42:30 AM »

On the missionaries and their influence we should not underestimate the lack of critical consciousness among especially the under-educated masses we still find in Africa and especially the rural poor. Missionaries over the centuries have exploited this "blank sheet" mentality that allowed the better informed to write whatever bullshit they wished and impress this on the blank sheets. The response typically was "...these people are learned and know better than us and we should listen to them". This knowledge translates into coercive power which suits the agendas of those in power and this is the antithesis of humanisation as expressed through a critical consciousness (i.e. questioning of socio-political influences, policies ideologies etc).

On Malema, reality will kick in: no doubt the EFF will deprive the ANC of a large chunk of the populist and younger more radicalised vote but I would predict they would not get more than 10%. The ANC in turn will be embattled on 2 sides...the DPA and the EFF and in all probability drop to between 50-55% of the vote. But then predictions are cheap. 
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Hermes
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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2014, 11:55:43 AM »

Unless if by some darkly comical cosmic conspiracy they manage to garner a two-thirds or greater majority in the upcoming elections.  They will then also be able to amend our Constitution at will.
If I recall correctly, the constitution provides for several of the protected civil rights to be suspended during a state of emergency, including those referring to gender orientation.  During the P W Botha era we lived with a nearly permanent state of emergency.  It would be possible for government to use this route, should attempts to change the constitution fail.  Another threat is government simply ignoring the rule of law.  We have seen cases where they ignore court orders.     
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Brian
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2014, 12:05:32 PM »

Putting on my conspiracy hat: I believe a more real scenario is a coup, initiated by a Idi Amin (Malema??) type who is able to gain support from the security forces and take down whatever democracy is left. Then the totalitarianism as described by Ayn Rand would kick in. The evil forces from across our borders (Mugabe et al) could even assist in the process...but then again I'm not a conspiracy theorist...should this happen we're all stuffed, including many black persons as well.
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Jon
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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2014, 08:21:31 AM »

Unless if by some darkly comical cosmic conspiracy they manage to garner a two-thirds or greater majority in the upcoming elections.  They will then also be able to amend our Constitution at will.
If I recall correctly, the constitution provides for several of the protected civil rights to be suspended during a state of emergency, including those referring to gender orientation.  During the P W Botha era we lived with a nearly permanent state of emergency.  It would be possible for government to use this route, should attempts to change the constitution fail.  Another threat is government simply ignoring the rule of law.  We have seen cases where they ignore court orders.     

It is exceptionally unlikely that the ANC could just ignore the rule of law especially with international attention. Also a state of emergency could never impact ones right to sexual orientation because it has no connection to what a purpose of the a state emergency could be. The type of rights that are suspended are the rights that could potentially hinder the effective handling and resolution of a crises. Homosexuality is hardly hindrance to anything. Therefore if there is no rational purpose in limiting that right then it won't take effect.

But before we get a head of ourselves it doesn't seem like our country will deteriorate to the point where there is a complete loss of the judiciary. I don't think the ANC will even get enough support to have a two thirds majority. Even if they did get it and they could amend the the bill of rights to the extent of abolishing gay rights, section 1 (which requires 75 percent of the the members of the assembly to amend) could still be relied on to protect those rights. Our Constitution is admirably clever.
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2014, 09:12:32 AM »

It is exceptionally unlikely that the ANC could just ignore the rule of law especially with international attention.


Foreign countries have seen South Africa change into a democracy, thanks to their sanctions and pressures, and wearing the right kind of t-shirts to rock concerts. Their job here is done. Now that apartheid has been sorted out, the world's interests in us have waned. We are of little further importance, and if our constitution is changed to suit the whims of the majority, then the word will be likely to merely go tsk-tsk and send Stephen Fry out to make a few documentaries.

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« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2014, 13:34:30 PM »

Also a state of emergency could never impact ones right to sexual orientation because it has no connection to what a purpose of the a state emergency could be. The type of rights that are suspended are the rights that could potentially hinder the effective handling and resolution of a crises. Homosexuality is hardly hindrance to anything. Therefore if there is no rational purpose in limiting that right then it won't take effect.

What you claim is surely sensible, but is it factual?  Section 9(3) of the Bill of Rights deals with equality.  It states:
The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.

Section 37(5) of the same bill deals with states of emergency.  It tables those rights that are non-derogable during such states and the extent to which they apply to equality as:
Quote
With respect to unfair discrimination solely on the grounds of race, colour, ethnic or social origin, sex religion or language

By subtracting the two sets of grounds, it would appear that some of them are indeed derogable during a state of emergency and that the state may legally "unfairly discriminate" on those grounds.

There is no imminent threat of any such development - I just wanted to point out that states of emergency could potentially be abused in this manner.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2014, 13:48:59 PM »

On a side note, I think a good case could be made that should the government declare a state of emergency purely for the underhanded purpose of circumventing the Constitution, such a declaration would very soon prove to be self-fulfilling.

'Luthon64
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Jon
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« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2014, 22:20:23 PM »

Also a state of emergency could never impact ones right to sexual orientation because it has no connection to what a purpose of the a state emergency could be. The type of rights that are suspended are the rights that could potentially hinder the effective handling and resolution of a crises. Homosexuality is hardly hindrance to anything. Therefore if there is no rational purpose in limiting that right then it won't take effect.

What you claim is surely sensible, but is it factual?  Section 9(3) of the Bill of Rights deals with equality.  It states:
The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth.

Section 37(5) of the same bill deals with states of emergency.  It tables those rights that are non-derogable during such states and the extent to which they apply to equality as:
Quote
With respect to unfair discrimination solely on the grounds of race, colour, ethnic or social origin, sex religion or language

By subtracting the two sets of grounds, it would appear that some of them are indeed derogable during a state of emergency and that the state may legally "unfairly discriminate" on those grounds.

There is no imminent threat of any such development - I just wanted to point out that states of emergency could potentially be abused in this manner.


The Constitution is one of the greatest documents I have ever been privileged to study. Of course that sounds sensible thats the type of thinking from which the Constitution is structured. A proper reading of that specific section will show you that those rights (equality, human dignity,  life etc) are non-derogable rights. Most significantly section 37(3) & (4) say that any legislation enacted in consequence of a state of emergency may only derogate from the bill of rights if that derogation is strictly required by the emergency - the last part being so important they actually emphasised it - and that any competent court may decide the validity of a declaration of a state of emergency and any legislation enacted in consequence of it. This highlights the independence of the judiciary, or in other words that the executive does not have the authority to act as they please.

Never forget the historical circumstances from which the Constitution was born. Prior to '94 the executive functioned almost like an authoritiatian with the judiciary having little to no say in what it did (legislation could only be struck down on procedural grounds). The new Constitutional order is revolutionary in that it prohibits the executive from ever having such unrestrained power as well as ensuring freedom and equality above all (two of the founding provisions in s 1 of the Con). If you can understand that you can sufficiently reason out any Constitutional scenarios as they will always focus on striking an equitable balance between parties or between the state and private individuals (and this is not even to mention positive rights and obligations).

I think its witch craft talk to speak as though the ANC has any possibility of turning this country into a Zimbabwe. Our safe guards are not only strong but the strongest in the world.
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brianvds
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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2014, 05:15:50 AM »

I think its witch craft talk to speak as though the ANC has any possibility of turning this country into a Zimbabwe. Our safe guards are not only strong but the strongest in the world.

They could if they could amend the constitution, I would think. But I think it is unlikely that any party will ever again come close to a two thirds majority. South Africa has proven too diverse and unruly for even the Nats to control, with a huge and highly trained police force and army. Neither Zuma nor Malema is likely to fare any better.

It is of some concern to me though that we seem to be facing economic meltdown, in a population where expectations vastly outstrip work ethic.
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