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Zenophobia and thuggery

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Hermes
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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2015, 12:00:27 PM »

There is an ethical aspect to immigration control that merits consideration.  In the developed world it has become unacceptable to discriminate on the grounds of race, gender, conviction and so forth, yet discrimination on the basis of nationality is common practice.  We may seemingly not discriminate on the basis of what colour a person was born or what gender a person was born, but it is quite fine to discriminate on the basis of where a person was born.  Being born north of the Mediterranean Sea, for example, gives one a huge advantage over being born south thereof.  This jars with liberal thinking.  One intuitively feels that the venue of one’s birth should be of little if any consequence.  (Admittedly venue is not the only determinant of nationality.)
 
The counter argument may be that a country does not become successful purely by luck, but also by collective effort and achievement.  Japan, for instance, has no mineral resources, yet it has achieved a very high standard of living.  The citizens of a successful country are therefore not just privileged; they are entitled to better living conditions.  They should not be obliged to share their prosperity with immigrants from failed countries that cannot get their house in order.  I appreciate that immigrants may become productive citizens, but large numbers of unskilled migrants are more likely to become a burden on a developed country’s welfare, which is why immigration control originated.

Would a world without borders be a better world?
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Rigil Kent
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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2015, 12:27:49 PM »

Would a world without borders be a better world?
For half the world, yes.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2015, 14:06:40 PM »

I'm inclined to think the resources/wealth/good times would be spread so thin the std. of living of the poorest would barely change.

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2015, 15:15:18 PM »

Compare this with several immigrants of my acquaintance, both black and white, who came to this country with the clothes on their backs, and now enjoy a middle class lifestyle.


But no, you're on exactly the right track. I've been to middle Africa and seen devastating poverty. The kind of stuff that makes joburg CBD look like London. BUT, you go there and the people are polite, motivated, hard-working, honest people. Strife may be the very thing making them so. They know damn well nobody is coming to save the day.

And so I found with myself. Whereas some older people I know did nothing to secure their retirement, medical needs, etc... I never grew up with the expectation that the government would help me out. I now see older people who feel cheated out of benefits they thought they'd enjoy forever.... and now have no backup plan.

But me, my generation, it was different: I knew from day one I was responsible for everything I need and want. AND I had BEE against me from my first step: I was told by institutions "Sure, you could apply for this bursary, but don't bother, you're too white". Once I had qualified, I was told the same thing by firms hiring graduates. Every card in the deck has been stacked against me for my entire adult life.

That's why this sentiment resonates so much with me. I had to fight to get somewhere in life and in the process have blown straight past the achievements of familial forefathers. They were too complacent, took too much for granted.

And this is also why I pick Rand over Marx any day.
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brianvds
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« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2015, 17:30:05 PM »

There is an ethical aspect to immigration control that merits consideration.  In the developed world it has become unacceptable to discriminate on the grounds of race, gender, conviction and so forth, yet discrimination on the basis of nationality is common practice.  We may seemingly not discriminate on the basis of what colour a person was born or what gender a person was born, but it is quite fine to discriminate on the basis of where a person was born.  Being born north of the Mediterranean Sea, for example, gives one a huge advantage over being born south thereof.  This jars with liberal thinking.  One intuitively feels that the venue of one’s birth should be of little if any consequence.  (Admittedly venue is not the only determinant of nationality.)

I once jokingly asked my brother whether the gardener he had appointed was a legal immigrant. He said something that resonated with me: "I don't care. How can giving someone a job possibly be construed as a criminal offence?"
 
Quote
The counter argument may be that a country does not become successful purely by luck, but also by collective effort and achievement.  Japan, for instance, has no mineral resources, yet it has achieved a very high standard of living.  The citizens of a successful country are therefore not just privileged; they are entitled to better living conditions.  They should not be obliged to share their prosperity with immigrants from failed countries that cannot get their house in order.  I appreciate that immigrants may become productive citizens, but large numbers of unskilled migrants are more likely to become a burden on a developed country’s welfare, which is why immigration control originated.

Would a world without borders be a better world?


Well, I profoundly respect the Japanese and what they have achieved. But then, Japan is and always had been a very homogeneous society. South Africa has not; in this respect, we bear a strong resemblance to America of the late 19th century. In Africa, we are the land of opportunity. Partially thanks to government incompetence - all the services the government is incapable of providing now have to be provided by the private sector.

Open borders are messy things, as America can testify. But America was pretty much built by first- and second generation immigrants. I very much doubt if they would have achieved their position of world prominence if they had strictly limited immigration in the 19th and early 20th century. As far as I'm personally concerned, immigrants are welcome.
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brianvds
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« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2015, 17:51:01 PM »

But me, my generation, it was different: I knew from day one I was responsible for everything I need and want. AND I had BEE against me from my first step: I was told by institutions "Sure, you could apply for this bursary, but don't bother, you're too white". Once I had qualified, I was told the same thing by firms hiring graduates. Every card in the deck has been stacked against me for my entire adult life.

White South Africans are the new 19th century European Jews: an increasingly unpopular minority with some quite openly discriminatory laws against them. That is partly why they have rapidly gotten themselves into pretty much the same position: richer and better educated than ever before. And unlike what happened in the 1930s and 1940s in Europe, I don't think we need to worry about death camps, the "Night of the Long Knives" or any of that crap.

This is why I don't complain or worry too much about BEE, affirmative action, suggestions that we pay heavier taxes or a once-off compensatory fine or whatever. All of that has achieved precisely the opposite of what was intended: whites became ever stronger, and the supposed beneficiaries of such laws became ever more decadent and plain useless.

Sooner or later, all South Africans of whatever race or creed will have to accept the reality that you have to work in order to live, and that wealth is not something a few evil, reactionary whites are hiding in a pot under their beds where it can conveniently be nationalized and redistributed but that it consists of the flow of money and energy and resources through the system, and that the only way to share in it is to bloody well WORK in that system.

Hence Mr. Malema and company are most welcome to try out whatever measures they like: confiscate farms, destroy statues, change the names of streets and towns, introduce new discriminatory legislation... thus far, all such measures have achieved nothing more than to make things even worse for their own supporters, and to create ever more new opportunities for anyone with any hint of education and work ethic. Such people include South Africans of all races, and also immigrants.

It should be noted, mind you, that AA laws are not as all-pervasive as the right wingers may like to believe. Over the past two decades I have worked with many black colleagues, and as far as I could gather, not a one of them got their job through affirmative action. I suspect that it is nowadays easier for a white person to get a relatively well paid job than to become a waiter at Wimpy (when last have you seen a white waiter in a Wimpy?) or a petrol attendant.

Thanks to our public school system, companies face a bit of an AA conundrum: they have quotas to fill but no qualified black personnel with which to fill the high level jobs, so they make up the difference at the lower levels. And thus, AA helps to ensure that the poorer part of the population will remain poor. Until such time as they realize that they will have no choice but to work themselves up the ladder. 
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