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Am i over reacting?

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cyghost
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« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2010, 10:19:40 AM »

A hard determinist (I think Peter Grant is one, on and off), would argue that a person doesn’t even choose their religion because there is no such thing as choice.

I'm pretty sure there are choices but not so sure that religious people really have any choice in a) their faith and b) which religion they end up in.

As a corollary, *I* don't really choose not to believe. I am simply incapable of believing the crap they hold as true, even though I want to.


So to what extend does everyone here think the religious "choose" their beliefs?

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2010, 10:27:42 AM »

Quote from: GCG
i have yet to see either straight or gay men perform better at keeping their families fed, or providing for their spouses, or educating their kids, or having successfull careers.


Can you re-state this. I'm not sure how to parse it. Better than what?

Quote
straight men value brute strength as measure of their manliness, when the test of a true male, has got buggerall to do with how big their beer boep is, and how good he is in a bar-fight.


If I was the kind of person that would get offended, I would be offended. But instead I'll take this on intellectually. Tongue There are parts of society that value this. There are parts that don't. I think you'd have a hard time finding a specimen like that living in Sandton.

Quote
and while, yes, the male has the superior physique, gone are the days when the man is the protector, as no man is bulletproof.  and i dont know any women that thinks a brawling guy is attractive.  and yet, men aspire to be these obnoxious bastards, and women try and see the 'sensitive' man inside all the bullshit.  venus and mars anybody?
gay or straight, the amount of brawn you swagger around with, doesnt measure how good a father and husband you are.


I saw a VERY good video about this.... There are men out there who "get it".

Here
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Faerie
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« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2010, 10:37:20 AM »

So to what extend does everyone here think the religious "choose" their beliefs?

I've got quite a few people here at work who have changed "faiths" - Muslims (mainly females) changing to xtianity, and xtians converting to islam (oddly enough, all of them white afrikaans females - on the other hand, perhaps not that odd at all). So there is possibly some choice involved in adults - however, its generally only those that is uncomfortable in their "given" religion that convert - all the muslim females are either divorced or in the process thereof, islam is not kind to divorced females (or females in general), therefor xtianity is a better option. So the thing about free will and choice is probably a moot question once again. As for the islam-converts, the whole lot of them are married to muslims.
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GCG
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« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2010, 10:58:29 AM »

Quote
Quote from: GCG
i have yet to see either straight or gay men perform better at keeping their families fed, or providing for their spouses, or educating their kids, or having successfull careers.

Can you re-state this. I'm not sure how to parse it. Better than what?

i mean, one as opposed to the other.  gay couples dont show to be better providers than straight couples.  and so on.

Quote
Quote
straight men value brute strength as measure of their manliness, when the test of a true male, has got buggerall to do with how big their beer boep is, and how good he is in a bar-fight.

If I was the kind of person that would get offended, I would be offended. But instead I'll take this on intellectually. Tongue There are parts of society that value this. There are parts that don't. I think you'd have a hard time finding a specimen like that living in Sandton.

i think i write with the author of that mail in mind.  no offense to the metrosexual.
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GCG
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« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2010, 11:05:36 AM »

So to what extend does everyone here think the religious "choose" their beliefs?

i guess, as a child, you do what you're told.  when you grow up, you have a choice. if you choose ignorance, then you stray in your little religious bunker.  if you choose to think and question, then you end up where you choose.
for some people, the idea that they are truly alone in this wildly spinning galaxy, is terrifying as all hell, thus, head in the sand, even against monstrous logic opposing it.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2010, 11:52:34 AM »

Quote from: cyghost
So to what extend does everyone here think the religious "choose" their beliefs?

I'd say that depends a lot on the milieu, if you grow up in the middle east, you may never even realise there's an alternative to being religious. At best you'd see OTHER religions, who are dogs to be trampled upon. However a world without God might not even be a permutation you're ever aware of. I don't think you'd be thinking clearly enough to make a conscious decision.

I recall during STevo's talk at mensa him saying that until someone DIRECTLY pointed out to him that his questions would be answered by assuming "no god", the possibility never even occurred to him.
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Lilli
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« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2010, 11:55:40 AM »

I will agree that it is possible that the majority of religious people (of various faiths) call themselves religious simply because its not a priority for them to question those beliefs that they grew up with and that are common in the social circles in which they move. I base this on religious people who I know, only, so I'm not sure its a fair assumption. Then you get people who are really serious about this stuff. I have several friends who vary in how 'faithful' they are, but have incredible 'knowledge' about the origins of the faith, original scriptures, etc etc. These people, however, often only do their 'research' from a religious viewpoint, thereby completely ignoring relevant facts (for example those indicating that god does not exist) and only focusing on the 'facts' presented to them by the church and religious writings (ancient or not)
So, to answer the question. No - I do not think the religious "choose" their beliefs, but I do believe they are capable of doing so if they ever thought that far (which is unlikely)
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Watookal
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« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2010, 12:06:24 PM »

My googling for a homosexual gene showed me that there is an alcoholism gene as well. I wonder if anyone ever looked for a religious gene?
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Hermes
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« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2010, 12:24:00 PM »

I've got quite a few people here at work who have changed "faiths" - Muslims (mainly females) changing to xtianity, and xtians converting to islam (oddly enough, all of them white afrikaans females - on the other hand, perhaps not that odd at all). So there is possibly some choice involved in adults - however, its generally only those that is uncomfortable in their "given" religion that convert - all the muslim females are either divorced or in the process thereof, islam is not kind to divorced females (or females in general), therefor xtianity is a better option. So the thing about free will and choice is probably a moot question once again. As for the islam-converts, the whole lot of them are married to muslims.
This suggests that some people change their religion when it suits them rather than out of conviction.  It begs the question how serious they were in the first place and if they would revert/convert again if they become uncomfortable.  In any case it indicates significant choice.
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Hermes
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« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2010, 12:43:18 PM »

My googling for a homosexual gene showed me that there is an alcoholism gene as well. I wonder if anyone ever looked for a religious gene?


Quote
The God gene hypothesis proposes that human beings inherit a set of genes that predisposes them towards spiritual or mystic experiences. The idea has been postulated by geneticist Dean Hamer, the director of the Gene Structure and Regulation Unit at the U.S. National Cancer Institute, who has written a book on the subject titled, The God Gene: How Faith is Hardwired into our Genes.


This hypothesis is highly questionable, as is evident from the article.
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kollectiv
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« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2010, 20:08:37 PM »

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Quote
The God gene hypothesis proposes that human beings inherit a set of genes that predisposes them towards spiritual or mystic experiences. The idea has been postulated by geneticist Dean Hamer, the director of the Gene Structure and Regulation Unit at the U.S. National Cancer Institute, who has written a book on the subject titled, The God Gene: How Faith is Hardwired into our Genes.

This hypothesis is highly questionable, as is evident from the article.
...except that a series of recent articles has shown that certain stimuli and certain physiological conditions (think: epilepsy) give one experiences that could be termed religious / mystical.  G_d as electrical stimulus: sounds a lot better than the big imaginary friend of childhood indoctrination!
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