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Anger mounts over Zapiro cartoon

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threeholerhauler
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2010, 14:47:40 PM »

Well, if Islam can be treated special, Pastafarians can be special too!  Evil Evil
gothcatgirl, did you know that as a Pastafarian, I am deeply offended by your blatant disregard for basic spelling rules. Please use a capital letter at the beginning of sentences, or else.  Tongue


As a fellow pastafarian, I would just like to point out that the holy pasta as depicted in the sacred sketches is unclothed.  I therefore see it as an insult that anyone should wear clothing!   I will in fact be severely offended if I forthwith see anyone with any form of garb covering their bodies.  This includes burkas.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2010, 15:32:00 PM »

threeholerhauler makes the point well.

Respect is earned, not commanded.  It is foolish and indeed dangerous to accord respect simply because someone demands it.  Ideas must be allowed to stand or fall on their own merits, not propped up by protectionisms for the sake of popularity and/or peaceful coexistence.  The former is the way of sceptical inquiry, just as it is in science.  If fear of giving offence had any validity as a reason to avoid presenting a different view, we’d still be living in the Dark Ages.  In fact, that’s exactly why theocracies are often indistinguishable from Dark Age fiefdoms.

And it is an unfortunate state of affairs that sometimes the only way to get your message across effectively is to be confrontational or provocative about it.  Zapiro’s cartoons don’t insult a people; they insult – as rightly they should – a ridiculous idea that those people believe for no good reason to be true.  It is only because those same people choose to measure their identity by that ridiculous idea that they feel insulted.  Part of those cartoons’ message is to confront that silly conflation.

'Luthon64
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Hermes
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2010, 15:47:04 PM »

A bit off the topic, but it is worth mentioning that Zapiro is not prone to religious bias - he has on previous occasions caused displeasure among Jews and Christians as well.
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GCG
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2010, 15:47:40 PM »


It's not just random poking fun with religion, it's not offense for the sake of it, it's important social comment on recent happenings and the fact that Islam is treated special when it comes to the media.

if that is the case, then i can see the need for awareness to be shed upon it.  in retrospect, i can see that islam does get special treatment in the media.  i concurr that then.  go zaps!!  i have never seen it in that way,  i am, then,  duly enlightened.  Grin

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gothcatgirl, did you know that as a Pastafarian, I am deeply offended by your blatant disregard for basic spelling rules. Please use a capital letter at the beginning of sentences, or else.  Tongue
bite me


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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2010, 16:26:07 PM »

Quote from: gothcatgirl
drawing mohammed, is just causing kak without any real result being achieved.  apart from causing unhappiness all round

I'd just like to point out (post enlightenment), that you fail to make an important distinction here: Drawing Mohammed doesn't cause shit. People trying to force the world to do what they want it to do, is "causing kak". Not drawing some cartoons.

My personal take on this is, sure, making fun of Christians would raise (and has) some eyebrows and cause debate. But it doesn't routinely lead to violence and bloodshed, and if it did, that would be WRONG and would only drive me to ridicule them even further. Muslims could also take a leaf out of your suggestions and appreciate that they're part of a larger society, exercise some tolerance, and cannot run amok whenever someone else does something that hurts their little feelings.
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GCG
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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2010, 17:02:50 PM »

true to form, guns dont kill people, people kill people.  so the cartoon isnt the issue, the people's reaction thereto is causing the problem.
that's a given.  im just saying, that by drawing the cartoon, you are knowingly poking the dragon.  its not like its an 3 year old doing it, and not knowing its not cool.
and true, the muslims are very touchy.  as are most religions.  but considering there are gazillions of them,  and a marginal few are the ones making the noise, its not quite fair to tar them all. 
as much as i dont want to be labeled a hedonistic sadist just cause some atheist wherever reach the news coz he killed and chowed his flatmate.
i feel for muslims, cause they are not all koran bashing suicide bombers.  the majority of them are just plodding along through life, like the rest of us sods, and quite honestly, dont know better.
its like xtians saying that peoples who lived before they were given xtiandom, were to burn in hell, just coz they didnt know god, like native americans before old columbus came along to save their souls.
im getting off the point. sorry.
the point im trying to make, and have been trying to make, is that innocents are kakking off, all round.  some muslim auntie wherever is feeling hurt cause her prophet is being made a mockery of.  she doesnt know better.  her religion is all she knows.  she doesnt have the need to think outside of the box, cause she was brought up to believe what she does.  its not her fault, she doesnt know any better.  if the cartoon were to bring her to see the big picture, and free her from religious bondage, then by all means.  im not sure if drawing cartoons will bring about this objective.  it will just cause anger.  surely there must be another way.
and unfortunately the muslim society isnt very forgiving.  cause their leadership instill this kind of thinking, and anyone that doesnt comply, gets ostracised at least. 
at least with xtians, such public mockery elicits debate, and i think, plenty of headway is being made.  i just dont think its wise to employ the same tactics used to break the xtian stronghold.  one should poke the dragon softly, if that makes any sense. 
figure out a way to get under the skin, without causing an outright public bitching-fest.
i think zaps is trying, in his own way, to get the ball rolling, but the direct way, might not be the best way.
quite honestly, i dont think its any atheist or skeptics duty to go about preaching the evils of religion. its not our job.  its our job to provide knowledge when asked for it.  nobody likes unsolicited info.
getting aggro wont get any results.  a bit of tactical cleverness is needed.  getting in their face wont do it. 

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Wandapec
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« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2010, 20:46:37 PM »

i think zaps is trying, in his own way, to get the ball rolling, but the direct way, might not be the best way.
He certainly wasn't the one that got the ball rolling. Here's the motivation behind it.
Everybody Draw Muhammad Day (20th May 2010) is an event organized to protest the violence faced by artists, cartoonists, and creators of all stripes who would exercise their free speech to parody or even depict the Prophet Muhammad as they would any other religious or political figure, and the chilling effect those threats have upon free speech. The event stems specifically from the reaction to the show 'Southpark' which earlier this year depicted the Prophet Muhammad in a bear suit. The show’s creators were threatened by an Islamic group, after which another 'Southpark' episode was censored by Comedy Central. A US cartoonist then did a whimsical cartoon questioning how Muhammad would look, and she suggested ‘Everybody Draw Muhammad Day’ but later withdrew her suggestion due to pressure. But many other cartoonists had already responded positively like Zapiro, who took up the suggestion as an assertion of free speech. The fact is that this campaign has released strong and emotional reaction from all sides and will continue to do so.
I think that most of the points as to why it needs to be done have been made. It is nonsensical and would set a terrible precedent if people couldn't draw pictures - cartoons - without fearing for their lives. Where would the line be drawn? What if Manchester United fans got upset and threatened peoples lives and businesses if they are drawn as losers in cartoons, or as someone else mentioned, the ANCYL threatens people who parody Julius (Not that they have to try much!)?
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Wandapec
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« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2010, 20:50:19 PM »

Zapiro's cartoon made it onto the RDF website. Whooohooo!!!!
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threeholerhauler
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« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2010, 21:25:31 PM »

Zapiro's cartoon made it onto the RDF website. Whooohooo!!!!


Now that is an honour! Go Zapiro!
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threeholerhauler
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« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2010, 22:32:12 PM »

For those who think we should just keep quiet and let the cruel sects and cults of this world do their own thing, let an ex-muslim tell you in her own words why silence is not an option.  In fact, silence from us, or from moderate muslims is nothing other than complicity.

Please watch:

Sharia Law


I don't see it as my job as an atheist to speak up.  I see at as my duty and moral imperative as a human being to stand up and shout in the face of injustice.  Whatever form it may take.

"Evil triumphs when good men do nothing"
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 02:14:51 AM by threeholerhauler » Logged
Wandapec
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« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2010, 12:13:23 PM »

Just saw this on The Freethinker website relating to what we've been chatting about.
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mdg
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« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2010, 13:23:59 PM »

Quote from: Wandapec
Zapiro's cartoon made it onto the RDF website. Whooohooo!!!!

...and on Pharyngula

I support Zapiro and everyone else that supported Draw Muhhamad Day.Religions should not be given any special consideration. If you want to worship a god/gods then keep it to yourself and leave me out of it. The problem is that they don't, every religion encourages their followers to convert others to their beliefs. Muslims see non believers as infidels who should be put to death, in fact anyone who disagrees with them is in danger of being killed for being outspoken. Remember Salman Rushdi?

Quote from: gothcatgirl
i dont think its any atheist or skeptics duty to go about preaching the evils of religion. its not our job.

I don't see any reason why I cannot question those ridiculous beliefs or why I should even respect them.If atheists and skeptics don't question, then who is going to do it? Do we just let religions enforce their idea of morals onto everyone else, like they already do in our everyday lives? Why should I respect religions who wish me to die a fiery death and suffer for all eternity because I'm an atheist and just because I think differently?
Hell, I don't think so!

I agree wholeheartedly with Micahel Meadon's latest blog post, which you can read at Ionian Enchantment.He makes some very good points about this whole argument.
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Watookal
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« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2010, 16:49:44 PM »

I was googling Freedom of speech and stumbled upon this: Testing the limits of freedom of speech
I still wonder where one draws the line? Is freedom of speech conditional? 
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Peter Grant
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« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2010, 18:44:20 PM »

Feeling very proud to be South African for a change, I emailed Zapiro's cartoon around the office this morning and quick as a flash got this response from the boss:

Quote
Please be sensitive when distributing material that may be offensive to our colleagues.

Which is weird because nobody seems to object when I rip off Jews and Christians.
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Wandapec
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« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2010, 14:23:22 PM »

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Please be sensitive when distributing material that may be offensive to our colleagues.
Ask for a list of things each individual in the office is going to find offensive so that you can avoid offending anyone......then give your list in!
No e-mails with white backgrounds and black writing...
No jokes about Julius Malema...
No jokes about the Bulls or the Stormers...
Etc.....
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