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Anger mounts over Zapiro cartoon

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Wandapec
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« on: May 23, 2010, 21:43:06 PM »

I am sure many of you are aware of this already. Zapiro has upset some people who follow a certain religion and this has brought out a whole lot of stuff about 'respecting' peoples religions. He did the cartoon as a result of "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day Campaign", which was started to highlight the the danger that artists etc. face. The M&G and Zapiro have faced all sorts of threats relating to the cartoon...I think it is just crazy! You can ready more here.
As a result of the "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day Campaign", Zapiro's cartoon shows Muhammad visiting his psychologist and asks why his own followers don't have a sense of humour. Followers of Islam will be offended because according to their beliefs the Prophet Muhammad should not be drawn. This cartoon does not intend to offend even if it has, but to demonstrate another view on the situation.
A Zapiro cartoon published in the Mail & Guardian has angered Muslims countrywide and the SA Muslim Judicial Council on Saturday called on its followers to express their condemnation and disapproval of it.
Here's the cartoon...

Here's his comeback in the next cartoon...

I really, really like Zapiro! Smiley
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threeholerhauler
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2010, 22:35:45 PM »

Go Zapiro.  We should never allow that a journalist's freedom of speech be curtailed by the sensitivity of the religiously brainwashed.
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StevoMuso
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2010, 22:52:44 PM »

I really, really like Zapiro! Smiley
I really, REALLY like Zapiro too. Nice post, thanks.
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Watookal
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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2010, 09:54:45 AM »

I personally find both cartoons funny since I believe all religions to be laughable if not ridiculous. The first however seems to have been done with the intent to provoke; which I think is a slippery slope.   
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DNA
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2010, 09:57:24 AM »

I was amused by the fact that the reaction to it (first one) proved his point. Grin
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bluegray
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 11:12:26 AM »

Brilliant!
The second one I think is quite old, probably a rerun...
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 12:27:05 PM »

sorry dudes, i would like to throw a spanner in the works here.
the islam-punters dont draw old muhammed themselves, coz the dude himself said, that they arent allowed to draw him, lest his image be idolised.  i appreceate the idea, and give them kudos where due. 
now all religion is bollocks, but i think zapiro was maybe poking a bit too hard.  the fact that muslims dont draw mohammed, and then would like other people not to do the same, can surely be respected.
if old zaps had to draw jc shagging mary, then the xtians would be up in arms as well.
i can absolutely appreceate the humour. but i think it was a little in bad taste.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2010, 12:42:46 PM »

… i think zapiro was maybe poking a bit too hard.  the fact that muslims dont draw mohammed, and then would like other people not to do the same, can surely be respected.
I disagree.  Ridicule is the only sane response to the patently ridiculous.  And as long as people continue to bow to the indefensible demand that the beliefs of others be respected, so long will religions continue to pursue and accumulate political favour.  The sooner they learn that their inalienable right to believe does not include automatic protection of the content of their beliefs, the better because it opens the door to the possibility of free, open and constructive dialogue.  Suppression does just the opposite.

'Luthon64
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2010, 13:01:42 PM »

like i said, all religion is bollocks.  and islam sure has its collection of stupidities and horrors it carries.  but the thing is, its not just the imam's throwing toys.  there are people who are genuinely hurt and saddened by a cartoon like that.  i totally think its hilarious, but one needs to practice a bit of retraint and respect as well.
as much as we get up in arms when the xtians have posters that imply that one cannot be good without god, as we expect them to give us our place in the sun, we must b3e sensitive to other people's beliefs.
as much as we can go tell people our views, and help them along if they wish to be free of their religious shackles. we have no right to shove their faces in the mud, cause we think its silly.
i have no restraint about woo-woos who put themselves out there, and make themselves available to my ridicule.  but i dont deliberately go out and sit eating bacon on the kerb in front of temple.  that's quite immature and selfish.
and as much as islam has its quota of woonuts out there, it doesnt give anyone a right to take the piss, especially about something so very much ingrained in their religion.  rather take the piss about the bombings and the treatment of their women.  drawing mohammed, is just causing kak without any real result being achieved.  apart from causing unhappiness all round.

just cause im an atheist, doesnt make me an insensitive douchebag with no respect for other people's beliefs.  if they want to pray to allah, they are welcome to it.  there are millions of innocent muslims in the world, that doest deserve to see their prophet depicted like that.  and as much as i agree that religion needs to be rooted out, insulting and upsetting the followers is not the way to do it.
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Hermes
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2010, 13:29:39 PM »

Why on earth should we respect ridiculous nonsense?   If the ANC Youth League feels "hurt" when cartoons of wee Julius are published, does that mean that cartoonists should desist?   Why have a different criterion to measure religious cartoons?

What is at stake here is freedom of expression, and if cartoonists have to hold back just in case someone's feelings may be hurt, it would indeed be a serious setback for media freedom.   That is what this drawing Muhammad day is all about - proving that journalists will not allow Muslims to intimidate them.

It has my full support.
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Watookal
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2010, 13:46:37 PM »

if old zaps had to draw jc shagging mary, then the xtians would be up in arms as well.
How about jc raping lady justice?
We all know zappy can get away with a lot, so let me throw a bobbejaan size spanner in the works. Would David Bullard have been dismissed if his surname was Shapiro? Where do we draw the line?
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Hermes
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2010, 14:05:23 PM »

The raping justice cartoon you point to is in fact substantially more serious than merely portraying Muhammad; considering that Zuma had been acquitted on rape charges, it could be construed as libel.

Where to draw the line?   That is called discretion.   Blanket bans are the hideout of people who are too lazy to apply their discretion.
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2010, 14:06:29 PM »

jc raping lady jsutice, its fair, cause jc is a public figure.  he put himself out there, willingly and knowingly.  so he knows that he will be in the spotlight. so with juju.  they are politicians.  political satire has been around for a while now, and politicians and public figures know it comes with the territory.
if muslims had no issue with muhammed being drawn, then taking the mickey would cool.  i promise you, if zaps drews a pic like this regarding jesus, the xtians would be raging.  fair enough.  but for the muslims, its about as bad a taboo as drawing jesus shafting a goat in the ass.  its not needed, and as much as i support the idea behind it, it not needed.  there are a myriad of ways to get his point accross, i think zaps just took a cheap shot.  it would still anger the muslim community, but it wont be kicking the root of their faith in the balls without need.
its shit stirring for the sake of it.
my whole argument is just, have respect.  i expect the religious to have respect by not knocking on my door, and stopping me on the street and wanting to convert me.  i dont go and paper the cars of church-goers with atheist propaganda either.  its not needed.  there is no need to exert energy with poking at something that doesnt need poking at.  there are plenty of issues in our country that deserve his attentions and artistic skill more, and can benefit more from gaining public attention.
to me its just being a bit insensitive. if the fact that muhammed cant be drawn, has caused some hectic outcry in our country, or caused someone harm, then i would say, go for it.  to my knowledge, there hasnt been anything like that.  if there was, and i missed it, i will gladly review my opinion.  if the cartoon was just for the sake of stating the obvious and getting sensation out of it, i would say the hoo-ha is not worth it.
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threeholerhauler
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2010, 14:35:17 PM »

No way, no how should we ever allow anyone to dictate what we are allowed to say, draw, write or think.  If the muslims think they should not draw mo, fearing that they will suddenly start worshipping the pic, then they shouldn't draw him.  But they may not tell me not to do it.  Had they asked me not to do it, I might have considered it.  But they did not ask.  They demanded.  They threatened death and destruction.  The murder of innocents.  They threatened the repeat of 911, 7/7 and Madrid.  They issued Fatwa's on the heads of the original Danish cartoonists and editors and threatened the destruction of the whole of Denmark.  They threatened terrorist attacks on the Danish and Dutch teams at the swc.  And if you think they are just kidding and still deserve respect, think of Theo Van Gogh, slaughtered for criticising the brutal treatment of women by islam.

No, they don' deserve respect and they certainly don't have the right to crap on our RIGHT to freedom of speech.

Religious zealots have the right to go ahead and headbutt the floor, hail mary and cross themselves, barmitzwa the night away and worship holy cows, but they do NOT have the right to tell me to do the same.  If we bend to one we have to bend to all.  I will not bend. neither should Zapiro, and neither should you.
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bluegray
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2010, 14:42:50 PM »

i think zaps just took a cheap shot.
I disagree. It's (in my opinion very good) satire around the events of draw muhammad day
It's not just random poking fun with religion, it's not offense for the sake of it, it's important social comment on recent happenings and the fact that Islam is treated special when it comes to the media. This is not right or fair and unless people speak up about it, it won't change. The fact that muslims made a fuss over the danish cartoons and succeeded to scare people into treating them special should not have happened and the media is taking back it's rights.

Well, if Islam can be treated special, Pastafarians can be special too!  Evil Evil
gothcatgirl, did you know that as a Pastafarian, I am deeply offended by your blatant disregard for basic spelling rules. Please use a capital letter at the beginning of sentences, or else.  Tongue
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threeholerhauler
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2010, 14:47:40 PM »

Well, if Islam can be treated special, Pastafarians can be special too!  Evil Evil
gothcatgirl, did you know that as a Pastafarian, I am deeply offended by your blatant disregard for basic spelling rules. Please use a capital letter at the beginning of sentences, or else.  Tongue


As a fellow pastafarian, I would just like to point out that the holy pasta as depicted in the sacred sketches is unclothed.  I therefore see it as an insult that anyone should wear clothing!   I will in fact be severely offended if I forthwith see anyone with any form of garb covering their bodies.  This includes burkas.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2010, 15:32:00 PM »

threeholerhauler makes the point well.

Respect is earned, not commanded.  It is foolish and indeed dangerous to accord respect simply because someone demands it.  Ideas must be allowed to stand or fall on their own merits, not propped up by protectionisms for the sake of popularity and/or peaceful coexistence.  The former is the way of sceptical inquiry, just as it is in science.  If fear of giving offence had any validity as a reason to avoid presenting a different view, we’d still be living in the Dark Ages.  In fact, that’s exactly why theocracies are often indistinguishable from Dark Age fiefdoms.

And it is an unfortunate state of affairs that sometimes the only way to get your message across effectively is to be confrontational or provocative about it.  Zapiro’s cartoons don’t insult a people; they insult – as rightly they should – a ridiculous idea that those people believe for no good reason to be true.  It is only because those same people choose to measure their identity by that ridiculous idea that they feel insulted.  Part of those cartoons’ message is to confront that silly conflation.

'Luthon64
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Hermes
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2010, 15:47:04 PM »

A bit off the topic, but it is worth mentioning that Zapiro is not prone to religious bias - he has on previous occasions caused displeasure among Jews and Christians as well.
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2010, 15:47:40 PM »


It's not just random poking fun with religion, it's not offense for the sake of it, it's important social comment on recent happenings and the fact that Islam is treated special when it comes to the media.

if that is the case, then i can see the need for awareness to be shed upon it.  in retrospect, i can see that islam does get special treatment in the media.  i concurr that then.  go zaps!!  i have never seen it in that way,  i am, then,  duly enlightened.  Grin

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gothcatgirl, did you know that as a Pastafarian, I am deeply offended by your blatant disregard for basic spelling rules. Please use a capital letter at the beginning of sentences, or else.  Tongue
bite me


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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2010, 16:26:07 PM »

Quote from: gothcatgirl
drawing mohammed, is just causing kak without any real result being achieved.  apart from causing unhappiness all round

I'd just like to point out (post enlightenment), that you fail to make an important distinction here: Drawing Mohammed doesn't cause shit. People trying to force the world to do what they want it to do, is "causing kak". Not drawing some cartoons.

My personal take on this is, sure, making fun of Christians would raise (and has) some eyebrows and cause debate. But it doesn't routinely lead to violence and bloodshed, and if it did, that would be WRONG and would only drive me to ridicule them even further. Muslims could also take a leaf out of your suggestions and appreciate that they're part of a larger society, exercise some tolerance, and cannot run amok whenever someone else does something that hurts their little feelings.
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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2010, 17:02:50 PM »

true to form, guns dont kill people, people kill people.  so the cartoon isnt the issue, the people's reaction thereto is causing the problem.
that's a given.  im just saying, that by drawing the cartoon, you are knowingly poking the dragon.  its not like its an 3 year old doing it, and not knowing its not cool.
and true, the muslims are very touchy.  as are most religions.  but considering there are gazillions of them,  and a marginal few are the ones making the noise, its not quite fair to tar them all. 
as much as i dont want to be labeled a hedonistic sadist just cause some atheist wherever reach the news coz he killed and chowed his flatmate.
i feel for muslims, cause they are not all koran bashing suicide bombers.  the majority of them are just plodding along through life, like the rest of us sods, and quite honestly, dont know better.
its like xtians saying that peoples who lived before they were given xtiandom, were to burn in hell, just coz they didnt know god, like native americans before old columbus came along to save their souls.
im getting off the point. sorry.
the point im trying to make, and have been trying to make, is that innocents are kakking off, all round.  some muslim auntie wherever is feeling hurt cause her prophet is being made a mockery of.  she doesnt know better.  her religion is all she knows.  she doesnt have the need to think outside of the box, cause she was brought up to believe what she does.  its not her fault, she doesnt know any better.  if the cartoon were to bring her to see the big picture, and free her from religious bondage, then by all means.  im not sure if drawing cartoons will bring about this objective.  it will just cause anger.  surely there must be another way.
and unfortunately the muslim society isnt very forgiving.  cause their leadership instill this kind of thinking, and anyone that doesnt comply, gets ostracised at least. 
at least with xtians, such public mockery elicits debate, and i think, plenty of headway is being made.  i just dont think its wise to employ the same tactics used to break the xtian stronghold.  one should poke the dragon softly, if that makes any sense. 
figure out a way to get under the skin, without causing an outright public bitching-fest.
i think zaps is trying, in his own way, to get the ball rolling, but the direct way, might not be the best way.
quite honestly, i dont think its any atheist or skeptics duty to go about preaching the evils of religion. its not our job.  its our job to provide knowledge when asked for it.  nobody likes unsolicited info.
getting aggro wont get any results.  a bit of tactical cleverness is needed.  getting in their face wont do it. 

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Wandapec
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« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2010, 20:46:37 PM »

i think zaps is trying, in his own way, to get the ball rolling, but the direct way, might not be the best way.
He certainly wasn't the one that got the ball rolling. Here's the motivation behind it.
Everybody Draw Muhammad Day (20th May 2010) is an event organized to protest the violence faced by artists, cartoonists, and creators of all stripes who would exercise their free speech to parody or even depict the Prophet Muhammad as they would any other religious or political figure, and the chilling effect those threats have upon free speech. The event stems specifically from the reaction to the show 'Southpark' which earlier this year depicted the Prophet Muhammad in a bear suit. The show’s creators were threatened by an Islamic group, after which another 'Southpark' episode was censored by Comedy Central. A US cartoonist then did a whimsical cartoon questioning how Muhammad would look, and she suggested ‘Everybody Draw Muhammad Day’ but later withdrew her suggestion due to pressure. But many other cartoonists had already responded positively like Zapiro, who took up the suggestion as an assertion of free speech. The fact is that this campaign has released strong and emotional reaction from all sides and will continue to do so.
I think that most of the points as to why it needs to be done have been made. It is nonsensical and would set a terrible precedent if people couldn't draw pictures - cartoons - without fearing for their lives. Where would the line be drawn? What if Manchester United fans got upset and threatened peoples lives and businesses if they are drawn as losers in cartoons, or as someone else mentioned, the ANCYL threatens people who parody Julius (Not that they have to try much!)?
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Wandapec
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« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2010, 20:50:19 PM »

Zapiro's cartoon made it onto the RDF website. Whooohooo!!!!
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threeholerhauler
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« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2010, 21:25:31 PM »

Zapiro's cartoon made it onto the RDF website. Whooohooo!!!!


Now that is an honour! Go Zapiro!
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threeholerhauler
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« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2010, 22:32:12 PM »

For those who think we should just keep quiet and let the cruel sects and cults of this world do their own thing, let an ex-muslim tell you in her own words why silence is not an option.  In fact, silence from us, or from moderate muslims is nothing other than complicity.

Please watch:

Sharia Law


I don't see it as my job as an atheist to speak up.  I see at as my duty and moral imperative as a human being to stand up and shout in the face of injustice.  Whatever form it may take.

"Evil triumphs when good men do nothing"
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 02:14:51 AM by threeholerhauler » Logged
Wandapec
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« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2010, 12:13:23 PM »

Just saw this on The Freethinker website relating to what we've been chatting about.
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« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2010, 13:23:59 PM »

Quote from: Wandapec
Zapiro's cartoon made it onto the RDF website. Whooohooo!!!!

...and on Pharyngula

I support Zapiro and everyone else that supported Draw Muhhamad Day.Religions should not be given any special consideration. If you want to worship a god/gods then keep it to yourself and leave me out of it. The problem is that they don't, every religion encourages their followers to convert others to their beliefs. Muslims see non believers as infidels who should be put to death, in fact anyone who disagrees with them is in danger of being killed for being outspoken. Remember Salman Rushdi?

Quote from: gothcatgirl
i dont think its any atheist or skeptics duty to go about preaching the evils of religion. its not our job.

I don't see any reason why I cannot question those ridiculous beliefs or why I should even respect them.If atheists and skeptics don't question, then who is going to do it? Do we just let religions enforce their idea of morals onto everyone else, like they already do in our everyday lives? Why should I respect religions who wish me to die a fiery death and suffer for all eternity because I'm an atheist and just because I think differently?
Hell, I don't think so!

I agree wholeheartedly with Micahel Meadon's latest blog post, which you can read at Ionian Enchantment.He makes some very good points about this whole argument.
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Watookal
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« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2010, 16:49:44 PM »

I was googling Freedom of speech and stumbled upon this: Testing the limits of freedom of speech
I still wonder where one draws the line? Is freedom of speech conditional? 
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« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2010, 18:44:20 PM »

Feeling very proud to be South African for a change, I emailed Zapiro's cartoon around the office this morning and quick as a flash got this response from the boss:

Quote
Please be sensitive when distributing material that may be offensive to our colleagues.

Which is weird because nobody seems to object when I rip off Jews and Christians.
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Wandapec
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« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2010, 14:23:22 PM »

Quote
Please be sensitive when distributing material that may be offensive to our colleagues.
Ask for a list of things each individual in the office is going to find offensive so that you can avoid offending anyone......then give your list in!
No e-mails with white backgrounds and black writing...
No jokes about Julius Malema...
No jokes about the Bulls or the Stormers...
Etc.....
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« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2010, 18:22:08 PM »

Ask for a list of things each individual in the office is going to find offensive so that you can avoid offending anyone......then give your list in!

Brilliant! I'll try it.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 18:34:52 PM by Peter Grant » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2010, 08:25:24 AM »

M&G 'regrets' cartoon offence

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/MG-regrets-cartoon-offence-20100526
Quote
On Wednesday Dawes said in light of what the paper had learned since publishing the cartoon on Friday, it decided to review its editorial policy on religion, especially where it concerned the Prophet Muhammad.

MMM it seems they get special treatment again.....
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« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2010, 09:55:38 AM »

DIS-AP-POINT-ING!!!!!
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StevoMuso
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« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2010, 10:25:49 AM »

Incredible how Zapiro can do a cartoon with Zuma raping the justice system and it only causes a small ripple, but his cartoon of Muhammad lying on a couch causes huge waves of contention. To my mind the Zuma cartoon was MUCH more of an offensive-causing picture.

Funny that we never see a headline, "Agnostics Kill Atheists". It's ALWAYS religion that causes all the shit. So, it's against their religious dogma to draw an image of Muhammad - so Zapiro drew a picture of a guy in a turban - which is logically not an "image of Muhammad." So now their nickers are in a knot and the M&G reviews their editorial policy on religion.

It's sickening.
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« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2010, 14:29:02 PM »

Quote
"We explained to them that we did not intend to cause any harm and we distanced ourselves from the islamophobic imagery depicted on a Facebook group," Dawes told Sapa.

Is a rational fear a phobia?   One should not deny the existence of islamophobia, but when a faith group commits acts of terrorism, issues fatwas that reward murder or intimidates the media, while demanding that the laws and practices of a secular society be amended to accommodate their whims, concerns are no longer unwarranted.   By yielding to such demands, we sacrifice the secular state through succumbing to a process of blackmail backed by fear.

If the editor of Mail & Guardian had just distanced the paper from the Facebook group because he felt that they were islamophobic, it might have been acceptable.   But he went further: he apologized for a cartoon that should be inoffensive to any rational reader; he sacrificed the paper's policy regarding religion and the Prophet Muhammad in particular after what they had learned.   Here is more than a mere rational reconsideration of the issue at hand or regret about supposed "hurt" that might have been caused - here is yielding to fear.

When such fear, spread by terrorism and threats, goes beyond rationality and deteriorates into a general phobia, it is not because of cartoons on Facebook or in other media, but because of Islam's own actions.
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Jane of the Jungle
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« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2010, 15:50:29 PM »

M & G probably already received their threats via email Wink
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StevoMuso
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« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2010, 17:18:11 PM »

When such fear, spread by terrorism and threats, goes beyond rationality and deteriorates into a general phobia, it is not because of cartoons on Facebook or in other media, but because of Islam's own actions.

It's like that one time when they were accused of being a violent religion by some politician, they went rioting in the streets in protest. So not only do they lack sense, they also seem to lack a sense of irony. I agree, Islam are making their own grave. The trouble is that anybody who speaks out against the atrocities in Islam gets death-threats. And everyone is too scared to say something in case we piss them off.

Funny, if their people did the things they do (like kill people, blow up buses and buildings, treat women like shit) WITHOUT the religious slant, the UN would step in, or the USA, or any number of governments around the world. But because it's all done in the name of their religion, now we all have to pussy-foot around them and apologize for criticizing them. Makes me angry.
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« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2010, 12:59:23 PM »

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threeholerhauler
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« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2010, 13:09:21 PM »

A nice comeback from a brave man, who unfortunately has an editor sadly born without balls.

Thanks for posting DNA
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« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2010, 14:24:20 PM »

A nice comeback from a brave man, who unfortunately has an editor sadly born without balls.
Don't be to harsh on the M&G. Lots of other papers would not have done it in the first place.
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« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2013, 17:31:47 PM »

Zaporio at it again. This one is sure to get a reaction.  Cheesy
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« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2013, 19:36:24 PM »

The poor man will never live down that shower head... :-)

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Mefiante
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In solidarity with rwenzori: Κοπρος φανεται


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« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2013, 19:46:22 PM »

The poor man will never live down that shower head... :-)
He might if the urinal catches on instead… Wink

'Luthon64
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