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The little things that irk us so

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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #660 on: April 03, 2019, 11:25:13 AM »

Technical support personnel that don't have the faintest clue what they're doing.

As a techie, you sometimes get to have, unavoidable, unfortunate, phone calls with tech support when what needs to be done can't be cleverly achieved on your end and you need someone to do something for you on "their end". Recently, especially, it's been irksome... and is especially so if you're more qualified to be doing what they're doing, but they don't know that, and think you're just JimBob from down the road.

I had calls with a couple of departments passing me around unsure of "where the problem is" (I'd told them within 1m of calling exactly where the problem was, but there's a PROCESS! AND IT SHALL BE FOLLOWED!). So, on call #3 (now days later) I was passed from tech support to billing once more, talked the billing person's head into a spin, and was passed back to tech support... at which point I went full techie on them. No longer asking, but politely lecturing and questioning....

"Sir, that's is unfortunately not possible"
"Are you sure?"
"Yes, what you're asking can't technically be done"
"Really? I'm not entirely sure that's true, if you open your browser...."

the conversation goes into considerable technical detail but the TL;DR is this: after about 30minutes on the phone the impossible became possible, and they finally capitulated and did what I'd asked them to do.... in the 1st minute of the 1st call I made days ago.

*DEEP SIGH*
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #661 on: April 03, 2019, 17:22:01 PM »

Vegan: Humans shouldn't eat meat, even though animals do eat meat, because humans aren't animals.
Same Vegan: Animals are sentient just like humans, thus we shouldn't eat them.

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brianvds
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« Reply #662 on: April 04, 2019, 04:32:44 AM »

Vegan: Humans shouldn't eat meat, even though animals do eat meat, because humans aren't animals.
Same Vegan: Animals are sentient just like humans, thus we shouldn't eat them.



Considering the horrors that factory farming perpetrates on animals, I have no problem with veganism as such. Not so enthusiastic when they get all pseudo-scientific.
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #663 on: April 04, 2019, 11:08:22 AM »

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brianvds
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« Reply #664 on: April 04, 2019, 13:18:50 PM »

Vegan: Humans shouldn't eat meat, even though animals do eat meat, because humans aren't animals.
Same Vegan: Animals are sentient just like humans, thus we shouldn't eat them.

Considering the horrors that factory farming perpetrates on animals, I have no problem with veganism as such. Not so enthusiastic when they get all pseudo-scientific.

My gripe above is mostly about the contradictory logic being applied. But, I do have some gripes with Veganism, in that much of it at this point is more of a religious movement than anything else. Non-ethical treatment of animals is not a necessary outcome of farming or eating animals. It relies on self-contradictory logic and is VERY prone to confirmation bias.

I agree: I do not have a problem with killing and eating animals as such, only with current practices in much of the industry. And yes, many vegans display signs of being cult members, blissfully out of touch with all reality. I have even seen them argue that prehistoric people did not eat meat, and thus it is "unnatural."

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Moreover, lots of animals die during the production of plant foods also. Pesticides, automated Harvesters chewing up critters, etc... Not to mention where some of the fertilizer comes from....

True, but considering that much of the plant food is produced specifically to be fed to animals, the slaughter of wild animals can be reduced if we don't use animal products.

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The thing is Vegans as we find them on social media address these about 0% of the time. They don't actually want to look at or contemplate REAL changes to HOW food is produced, they'd rather insist everyone changes their diets completely and ignore any ethical remedies to their concerns outright. As such I find it more of a ego-masturbation exercise. (Especially when they're claiming, as in the above, to be "above" the natural order)

And in the process they achieve little more than alienating people who might otherwise have listened to them. I think a lot of it is just virtue signalling. I don't think they actually genuinely want everyone to become vegan, because then they wouldn't be special anymore.

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And thricely, I've seen more and more youtube videos lately by ex-vegans explaining how their religious certitude in veganism destroyed their health and nearly killed them. Before they finally capitulated to the pressure of healthcare professionals to eat some meat and got better within DAYS sometimes... That is a meaty topic that I'm sure can only be fully addressed by going online and searching for them. They're out there, and their numbers are growing.

As far as I know it is possible to remain healthy on a vegan diet, but some supplements need to be taken, and it has to be a varied, healthy diet: you cannot simply stop eating meat and eat breakfast cereal instead. Which is apparently what some of them do. Even worse, they sometimes insist on feeding their babies vegan diets, thereby killing them.

But just as eating meat does not automatically need to imply unethical farming, so veganism does not need to imply being part of the religious vegan cult. I actually saw an article the other day in which a vegan implores his fellow vegans to stop being so judgemental and fanatic. And for meat eaters to consider cutting down rather than cutting out.

As for me, I am increasingly uncomfortable with the way in which animal products are produced. But my current arrangement with my landlady includes meals, and they are not vegetarians, so the whole issue is kind of moot. I cannot afford not to make use of the deal. My suggested compromise position: cut out products derived from mammals, seeing as they are our closest relatives, and the more intelligent animals.

Our entire attitude to animals is actually thoroughly schizophrenic and irrational. I think I have related the story here: on holiday in Mozambique, my sister in law finds a guy burying a little dog alive. She went absolutely ballistic. And yet, she has no problem munching on a juicy steak, produced in a manner actually not much different at all from the way in which the little dog was being tortured. And derived from an animal with a mind not much different from that of the dog either.

I feel the same bemusement when I see people going apeshit over yet another rhino poaching. On one recent Facebook post I even saw the dead rhino fetus (a pregnant rhino was poached) referred to as "an innocent little baby." And of course, everyone gets emotional and suggests we string poachers up in the nearest tree. But almost all of these irate people are enthusiastic meat eaters, and never spare a thought for the suffering their steaks go through before ending up on the plate. It simply doesn't make any sense.

Upon reflection, it appears to me that our relationship with animals is tribal. That is to say, it similar to the relationship most humans had with other humans for most of history: the basic rules of morality ("do unto others" etc.) counted only for your own tribe; everyone else was fair game for exploitation, enslavement or genocide. Today, this is how we deal with animals: some species or individual animals are declared part of our tribe; the rest we can freely exploit. Rhinos are our tribe, and thus we get emotional when one is slaughtered; cattle are not, and thus we can freely eat them. Similarly, poachers are not of our tribe, and thus it is okay if they are shot down like the animals they are.

Seeing as this was our attitude for most of history, there is perhaps nothing wrong with it. It would serve us well though to be honest about it. Like it or not, the vegans are probably actually more internally consistent than the rest of us.
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