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What's good for the goose.....

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Faerie
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« on: August 10, 2010, 10:45:20 AM »

aught to be good for the gander, but we know it doesnt work that way in real life...

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Joost, Amor 'not speaking'
2010-08-10 09:26
 
Johannesburg - "All hell has broken loose" between the former Springbok Joost van der Westhuizen and his estranged wife, singer Amor Vittone, according to a source.

The ill feeling between the two of them is so serious that Van der Westhuizen has not seen his two children, Jordan, 6, and Kylie, 4, in more than a week.

"All hell has broken loose between them," said the source close to the couple.

In further developments, it was confirmed to Beeld on Monday that the mysterious third person associated with the divorce is a man who is allegedly being linked to Vittone.

Despite speculation over the weekend that Vittone was interested in one or more South African singers, it was confirmed on Monday that the man is not a South African.

"He is a foreigner but not an Italian."

Vittone's parents were Italian.

Joost 'worried'

Until very recently, when there was still talk about the couple saving their marriage, Van der Westhuizen had taken his two children to school every day and fetched them again in the afternoons.

He is apparently no longer doing this. He is also not going near the couple's upmarket house in Dainfern Valley in Johannesburg.

He and Vittone are not speaking. He contacts his children by SMS.

Van der Westhuizen is still staying with a friend after leaving the house in May.

His lawyer, Robert Klikenberg, did not want to confirm or deny the information revealed by the source.

"I can confirm that a third party was mentioned in the court documents. Joost is very worried about his children and the fact that he is currently not seeing them."

He said discussions would continue this week with a view towards a settlement.
 

- Beeld

So I'm having this cynical chuckle, she was all forgiving of him frolicking naked with powder and strippers on video... but woe her seeking a sympathetic shoulder to cry on. 

Why do people even bother to try patch things up when its gotten to this point? Aside from the religious idiots wanting to stay married because of an oath, if either partner goes walkies then there is very obviously something wrong with the relationship, and if it wasnt sorted out before the said walkies, then its unlikely to be sorted out after.....

Opinions? Anybody here go through such a period and stayed (happily?) married?  I didnt, and had in retrospect an extremely successful divorce (as opposed to a failed marriage).


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Brian
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2010, 11:14:59 AM »

As far as I know a leopard, male or female don't change their spots...both had similar stories before even getting together.  Soort soek soort. Generaal Kamp Staaldraad se draad word nou getrek!
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GCG
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2010, 11:56:39 AM »

i firmly believe in every partner having their own circle of friends, to whom they can bemoan to.  if, however, it reaches a stage where your friends receive more me-time than your partner, then the bus has departed.

and yes, the equalities regarding the sexes are alive and kicking.
when i was in the birthing stages of my divorce, my mum told me, that i shouldnt hang out with any men. because it would hurt my cause.  problem is, im bisexual, so then i cant hang out with women either.  should i just then stay at home?
even men who are players, get the nod from peers, and acceptance from society in general.
women who are players, are sluts, whores, cheap, easy, etc, etc.
men who are go-getters in the business world, are ambitious.
women are ball breaking bitches.

so how far have we evolved from the frau-frau staying at home and squeezing out babies?

not far, i say.  gender equality is even more far off than racial equality, and more people will tut-tut at you for being racist, than being sexist.
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Brian
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2010, 14:36:42 PM »

you're right GCG, and in woo woo societies it's even worse: http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcnn.com%2F2010%2FWORLD%2Fasiapcf%2F08%2F09%2Fafghanistan.woman.killed%2Findex.html&h=fc0be
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Brian
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2010, 14:53:48 PM »

Flippen sub-humans Angry......so much for mercy, forgiveness and compassion, may the talibananas all suffer excruciating pain as their guts are ripped out by slow burning suicide bombs!
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Faerie
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2010, 14:57:24 PM »


so how far have we evolved from the frau-frau staying at home and squeezing out babies?

The biggest problem with the slow "evolution" of women in specifically this country, is with the women themselves. Whether its culturual / religiously or both based, would make an interesting study. 

We do it to ourselves, the few of us that actively fight for the right to open mouth and argue our points of view are viewed as outcasts by other women who embrace the idea of men looking after them, which makes us shut up in polite conversation.

A lot of women's issues are caused by themselves. We allow it, and until women in general start standing up for themselves and more importantly start THINKING for themselves, we'll just plod on as always, and once or twice a year we'll be told how great we are (Mother's day and Women's day), and thereafter we'll just plod on again, oh-so bloody freaking grateful that some man remembered said Mother/Women's day.
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Brian
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2010, 15:19:57 PM »

We do it to ourselves, the few of us that actively fight for the right to open mouth and argue our points of view are viewed as outcasts by other women who embrace the idea of men looking after them, which makes us shut up in polite conversation.

A lot of women's issues are caused by themselves. We allow it, and until women in general start standing up for themselves and more importantly start THINKING for themselves, we'll just plod on as always, and once or twice a year we'll be told how great we are (Mother's day and Women's day), and thereafter we'll just plod on again, oh-so bloody freaking grateful that some man remembered said Mother/Women's day.
I disagree. Of course there are many women like you describe, but you're a bit hard on women...there are many that are tough cookies (excuse the chauvinist in me  Grin) and I know many who are stronger than their men. Yes women can do more for themselves but when you listen to woowoos proselytizing "women must subject themselves to their men" like Uncle Angus, I get frecking mad. Religions are the guiltiest or entrenching this. I am a male but also a feminist!
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2010, 15:58:40 PM »

i agree with faerie to a degree.  it is female nature to see their peers fail, so they can be the best muffin baker at the church fair.  and i blame media, for still punting the woman as the princess waiting to be saved by her prince.  the few female heroic female characters are few and far between, like Ripley in the Aliens trilogy, and Sarah Connor in Terminator. 
i think men feel safer when they are the one holding the bludgeon.  they allready know women are smarter, so the one handle they cling to, is their superior  physical strength, and the saving that goes along with it.
and i quite think that women are lazy.  they get married, get pregnant, and quit their jobs and become financially dependant.  this handing the man another weapon.  i absolutely loathe house-wives.  stop being lazy-ass bitches and get a job!  sorry if i offend.
and the flipside of the coin, if a man decides to sit at home and raise kids, okay, maybe the wife earns oodles, but i have yet to see a kid who doesnt gain from being in a pre-school and/or afterschool.  so get a job, and let your kids go jol with their buddies, as opposed to watching you iron panties.
i have a horrible feminist streak, and I enjoy reading Germaine Greer's books, she sommer makes me pissed off all over, and I re-read her stuff often, just incase i'm getting soft.
allso, i have an issue with parents assigning genders to their kids.  ie, girls in pink, boys in blue.  girls play with dolls and stay inside with mommy, boys play with trucks and mud and stay outside and get dirty.    it's as criminal as telling a baby that he will be a criminal without letting him decide his own life.
so girls a tought to be emotional, spineless, and fall upon their husbands.  and boys are tought to be brutes, and disdain emotion.  and we build a perfectly disfuntional society.
so women cry buckets, and men think they are pathetic.  that just works out great.

governments have put all manner of projects in motion to get the woman liberated.  yet, here we are still. 
and from personal experience, women seem to put the image of the perfect, above actual happiness. they would rather spend their time helping you get back with your abusive husband, coz you 'love' him.  than shake some sense into you, and get you the hell away from him.  makes my head spin.


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Faerie
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2010, 16:03:11 PM »

I disagree. Of course there are many women like you describe, but you're a bit hard on women...there are many that are tough cookies (excuse the chauvinist in me  Grin) and I know many who are stronger than their men. Yes women can do more for themselves but when you listen to woowoos proselytizing "women must subject themselves to their men" like Uncle Angus, I get frecking mad. Religions are the guiltiest or entrenching this. I am a male but also a feminist!

True, very true, there are tough women out there, and I respect every one of them. However, what I have in the back of my mind is the hundreds of women on our books and every one of them are of the more pathetic kind....the type that will come to you for a year and then one morning pitch up with a book written by Joyce Meyers and excitedly tell you that the book told them EXACTLY what you've been telling them, but now they believe it because JOYCE told them so and she's a xtian.... (ugh, facedesk)

My S/O is also a male feminist - he's also fond to say that he's a lesbian in a man's body.   Cheesy
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2010, 16:42:59 PM »

they allready know women are smarter

And there is why I'm a bit skeptical of feminism. I'm all for equality, bring it by the bucket load please. But it's this kind of over-reaction that gets to me. It's like the black liberation struggle, in theory it's about becoming equal to your oppressor. In practise it's about trying to overthrow your oppressor so that you can take his(or her Wink) place (ie. Affirmative Action). In this case the reaction to "Men are smarter" is "Women are smarter!", instead of the correct approach IMHO, which is, we are all the same.... a few smart, a lot of average, and a few really stupid.


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Stop being lazy-ass bitches and get a job!  sorry if i offend.

Not at all but if someone wants to do that, they should feel free by me. Of course, the same counts for the man too. If she can earn more, and the couple want someone to spend more time with the kids on a daily basis, he should also feel free to be a "stay at home dad". I struggle to find a problem with it. Work is not everything to everyone, people are different.

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ie, girls in pink, boys in blue.  girls play with dolls and stay inside with mommy, boys play with trucks and mud and stay outside and get dirty.    it's as criminal as telling a baby that he will be a criminal without letting him decide his own life.

There have been hermaphrodite children born, where the parents had to decide to remove a malformed penis and "make" the child a girl. In one case I saw the child, 20 odd years later, being interviewed... Turns out in spite of his parents doing everything they can to enforce "her" "girlhood", pink rooms, dolls for toys, hanging out with chix, hormone treatments, etc. "She" still insisted on boys toys, and actively resisted everything despite having no knowledge of her original gender problems. "She" admitted a huge internal struggle of being "caught in the body of a girl", thought she was just gay, and the like. Upon the parents finally relenting after she left school, and admitting what had happened, this person immediately decided to have gender modification done. Take from that what you will, but I do think our gender differences may be more entrenched than we'd like to admit. On this my only conclusion is: Different, but equal. And I don't see why our differences should be denied if they do exist, but they shouldn't form the basis of arrogance.
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Peter Grant
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« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2010, 18:20:20 PM »

I think a distinction needs to be made between equity feminism and gender feminism. I am an equity feminist and believe that woman should have all the same rights and opportunities as men and should basically be treated equally. Gender feminists argue that woman are the same as men and that any differences between the sexes are entirely social, this is obviously wrong. Anyone who has watched little boys and girls play will agree that there are inherent differences in the way they behave. Men and woman are also on average better at different things and this will reflect in the careers they choose. If we see more boys studying math and more girls studying language we shouldn't be surprised, but the gender feminists will invariably shout "Discrimination!"
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« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2010, 18:45:46 PM »

i wish to disagree on girls and boys having different inherrent skills/playing styles/etc.
i grew up in household dominated by women, my dad and the dog being the only males around.
my sister is teh frilly type.  she likes her dollies and babies and dress-up and crap.
i stole toy-cars from the boys, was the leader of an all-boys gang in my neighbourhood, climbed trees, worked on my bike, was on the roof, was in the garden in the mud.... the only reason i played with barbie, is coz the girls i was friends with, didnt care for mud and dust and crap.
and it wasnt for my mum not trying hard as hell to get me to girly up.  i had frilly frokkies galore.
i can work on my car, and i am more mechanically inclined than most of the men i know.  i can strip and fix a fridge, build a pc.  and i suck at languages and maths equally.
i suspect that women in general tend to go for languages, is coz society says a girl must be a teacher/nurse/secretatry, untill she gets married, then het main purpose in life is to be a mother and wife.  very few parents have ambition for their girl-children like they have for their sons.
i can remember my mum making me stop taking art, and take typing instead.  she allready relegated me to be just a little secretary.  they have the same take on 'taming' women by getting them married off.  and i guess the same for men.
i think the younger generations are more prone to gender-bending, as men often cook better than women, and the women are the ones who diagnoses the new noise under the car's bonnet.
i think we forget what thousands of year's worth of social and gender typecasting has done to our mindset.
there are, of course, genetic differences, that might make the male more the hunter type, and the female more the maternal type.  but society says that a woman must be timid, and a boy rough.  nobody tells one to play with dolls, and the other with cars.  it's parents that get paranoid when a little girls favours trucks over plastic babies, and frantically steer them in the 'right' direction.  lest the neighbour frown upon their parenting skills.  and, i suspect, lest they create a social outcast in the shape of a lesbian.  god knows that is the first thing a parent says when you fall from the closet 'what did i do wrong?'
i read up, sometime not so long ago, about neutral parenting, i cannot remember where right now.  and i think that is outstanding.  in an environment where little boys and girls are presented with a plethora of option for likes or dislikes.  where a little boy can play with dollies if he feels like it, and nobody will tell him its wrong.  and if he so chooses, decides he likes boys better than girls, then he hasnt has all this masculine shit shoved down his throat since babyhood, and he can be what-the-hell-ever he wants.
andronony is the way forward.
im sure a whole bunch of men and women, would love to be able to have to stop plucking eye-brows, buffing in the gym, having hair bleached/permed/straightened.....  and just be what the hell ever walks out the door in the morning.
that being said, i dont know if i will be able to just be as nature has made me.  i think coz i know society would shun me if i didnt pluck my eyebrows, shave my legs, wear elegant suits, etc. 
i'm getting off the point.

i believe, very much so, that human nature is only determined by DNA up to a point, then human intervention kicks in.
some girls would like dollies, and chooose them naturally, other wouldnt give it a second look.  i really think its a crime to force baby girls and boys into boxes before they can even speak their own minds.
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Mefiante
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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2010, 18:59:22 PM »

Vive la Différence! Kiss

'Luthon64
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Peter Grant
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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2010, 19:07:50 PM »

GothCatGirl you are hardly average, and I mean that in a good way. Wink

I'm not at all surprised that you were a tomboy as a child and as you say it's not for lack of your mother trying to get you to "girly up". Your brain is probably just more masculine than your sister's.

I agree that pushing children into gender roles is bad, but when and if they do choose a role we shouldn't try to change that either.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 20:50:56 PM by Peter Grant, Reason: r » Logged
Peter Grant
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2010, 19:47:08 PM »



Nice sentiment, and it looks like an interesting book. Grin
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BoogieMonster
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2010, 22:31:51 PM »

Like Peter says, it's all about the average. I know I'm generalising, I would've thought that's a given. Nature seems to like bell curves. Lots are in the middle, some are to the sides. (See: this) A lot of the things you say I know well gcg, I didn't mean to sound ignorant of them if I did. I grew up with a tomboy girl in the 'hood. And once again, Peter is right, men actually prefer them (well I do), to the knitting circle and cooking fraternity.

To prove the point: I also like to cook more, and do it better, than my girl. I am the one who insists the kitchen be tidy, etc. I REALLY like girls that are not the girly girly type. But then, I do count her as the exception. However, I am the one under the hood of the car or some more complicated contraption, and yes she babies me like hell if I get sick. I'm sure she's on a different part of that continuum.

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the first thing a parent says when you fall from the closet 'what did i do wrong?'


Heh, that's exactly what I fear from falling out of the atheist closet.  Smiley
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Faerie
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2010, 09:09:54 AM »

Men and women are NOT the same, nor do we have the same abilities to do certain things, certainly, there are women that make brilliant mechanics and electricians, same as there are men that make excellent interior decorators and child psychologists (both considered a female "trait"), but taking the genders into a wholistic view, females remain more nurturing and the males more competitive and protective. As it should be, its what makes us a unit when coming together in relationships.

GCG, I too was a tomboy of note, but in the same breath, at the end of the day after falling out of trees and taking things apart, I would wallow in my bubble bath and blow dry my hair to look pretty again - whereas my brothers could quite happily get into bed looking like grease monkeys - and therein lies the major difference, inherently, we tend to look after ourselves far better than men do, and we do the same for those who surround us and whom we love - we nurture.

My man do stuff for me, I'll get home and the hinges on the kitchen cupboards are fixed, I, in return, will pack his favourite lunch, switch on the 'lectric blanket so his bed is warm and lay out his gown.... an expression of love, in very unique ways. It doesnt mean that I cannot fix the hinges myself, or that he cannot (or wont) fix a meal for me, but he's BETTER at the hinges than I am. I am good at thinking about his comfort, and love doing it for him.


Speaking of studies - I rather enjoy watching "Child of our time" currently running on BBC knowledge, take 20 odd kids, from various background and track them growing up until they're 18, the study started in 2000 - which makes the kids 10 years old now, it shows very clearly what influence society, their parents education/background and in one case, a boy's single mother with severe physical disabilities, have on them.





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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2010, 15:55:51 PM »

Men and women are NOT the same, nor do we have the same abilities to do certain things, certainly...
I agree with this statement, but having different abilities/inclinations than the next person IMO has more to do with the fact that you are different people than being gender-specific.
...females remain more nurturing and the males more competitive and protective. As it should be, its what makes us a unit when coming together in relationships.
sorry, but what if you happen to be in a same-sex relationship?
I was (am) a bit of a tomboy too, and my housemate (same age, male, straight (mostly, like me preferring opposite sex relationships) is not the typical manly-man. He's a better cook than I am. He doesn't know how the drill works, so when we moved in together, I had to put up the shelves. No problems there. I cannot agree that a person has a certain role to play just because he/she is a he/she...

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« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2010, 09:15:22 AM »

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Men and women are NOT the same, nor do we have the same abilities to do certain things, certainly...
I agree with this statement, but having different abilities/inclinations than the next person IMO has more to do with the fact that you are different people than being gender-specific.

totally,  there i agree 100%.


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...females remain more nurturing and the males more competitive and protective. As it should be, its what makes us a unit when coming together in relationships.
sorry, but what if you happen to be in a same-sex relationship?

as one gets in most gay relatioships, there tends to be a more dominant partner.  but even that is seeming to fading out.  as more ladies, and guys, in gay relationships, tend be just either a woman or a man.  not a butch woman, or a pansy man.
i think, society in general, is slowly moving towards androgony.  like a star trek scenario, where everyone wears a uniform.  the only difference betweeen genders, is one got boobies, and the other not. 
i find it disgusting, that in games like golf, cricket, etc, where your skill isnt determined by your physical strength, men and women are still seperated.  in schools, girls play netball, and boys rugby.  how many schools have girls cricket teams?
women are weakened by people expecting them to be weak, and as long as women allow this, we will be seen as the weaker sex.

allso, i want to make a comment on something i said earlier in this thread, about women being smarter.  i think the term i was looking for, is wiley.  men get their way, coz they are men.  they can either bargain with another man, coz society is still ruled by men, and the brotherhood is still very much in charge.  or if all else fails, he can physically intimidate his way in.
women, on the other hand, has had wiggle and outmaneuvre men, not by physicality, but by brains.  so women are told by their elders, to get what they want by manipulation, mind-games and sheer wit.    even the doffest bokkie wil know how to cop a tear when she wants to get her way.  unfortunate, but hell, if it works...

i have found, in the majority of my relationships, guys are all for gender equality, and chores and responseabilities being equal.  but when i end up being a better DIY person than them, and a better cook, and better gardener, and better Tekken player.... the fall off the boat.  the little niche that they occupied, i excell in.  they still want to be the provider, the man of the house, the hunter, and when i, as the weak little woman, are better at the hunting and providing than they are, then the ego falls to pieces, and a role reversal happens.
they turn into the needy, teary, pathetic, stereotyped female role, and i into the distant, unemotional hard stereotypical male role. it's very bizarre.
i think, as much as the modern man would want to be all metrosexual, and have the whole schpiel about gender equality, they still want to come home with the bread and bacon, and stand in the doorway with an puffed-out chest, and they expect the woman to be clining to their pant-leg in supplication.  and i think, that eventhough men wont admit it, they still have that fantasy, whether they know it or not.  instilled by society, by tv, by books, by parents..... its unavoidable.
just as all women still wait for their prince charming to come save them from the tower.  some women never realise that they have to slay the dragon themselves.  so they fall for the nearest thing to prince charming, and end up with a man she has all these expectations for, and they end up being just a regular guy.  so she lives with average guy, still trying to squeeze him into the prince charming box.   i can go on and on about this.  this is, obviously, something i feel very strongly about.
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