Atheist

[Tweefo]

Like most atheist's it took me long and slow time to change. I grew up in a Christian, Afrikaans family on a farm where there was no question of believing or not. As far as I can remember it was Chris de Burg's "Spanish Train" that started me thinking. Up to this point if you sang about God it was a Pasalm or a Gesang. I then went and did my national service and saw things that did not quite rhyme with a just and fair world view. Started reading books that did not just tell me things I would like to hear. Supertramp's Logical Song" came out and it all went down hill from there. Luckily we live in a country and age where you don't get killed for your believes but that might change of course.

[Ockham]

For me it was a scientific education. Also grew up Afrikaans and Christian, although very watered-down and almost just for the show of it. Thing is, I think I actually only truly believed until about the age of about 12, but it took onother 10 years to actually be honest with myself about it. By the time I graduated (from the Potchefstroom Universiteit vir Christelike Hoër Onderwys, nogal) I had lost all pretense of faith, although I must admit to keeping it a secret from my conservative colleagues at work.

[Skeptic]

Also Afrikaans and Dutch Reformed background. I never felt home in the church, and could never really taken active part, because I never had that "feeling" everybody was talking about. I then reasoned it out, but still went to church in the odd occasion, not trying to offend family and friends. Luckily my wife and son are with me in this. We have a business in a fairly conservative community in Cape Town - thus one has to be very careful that one does not offend any of the customers. So one can say we live a sort of a double life - We never go to church anymore, and we try not to discuss religion. So that is the price one has to pay for being different - sometimes it is quite hard but it will not change my belief system in any way.

[Sentinel]

I read the bible!

[wandapec]

I read the bible!

[Anacoluthon64]

First, I listened to the priest.

Next, I listened to the world.

Finally, I listened to myself.

'Luthon64

P.S. Good one, Sentinel!

[Bullitt]

Should a true sceptic really be atheist?  Surely if we cannot prove there is, or is not, a god, we should be agnostic.  I suppose this goes toward the tea cup, flying spaghetti monster debate.  Everyone is a tea cup/flying spaghetti monster atheist, but agnostics are typically agnostics regarding the gods of the major religions.  I struggle to label myself an atheist, I'll stick to agnostic.  I am definitely a major religion atheist though.

[Sentinel]

Hi Bullit,

Should a true sceptic really be atheist? 

Agnosticism seems to be more socially acceptable.  When I speak about religion, some people tell me that I sound like an ATHEIST, as if it's the biggest insult they can think of.  My answer is always: "YES, and proud of it!".  I recall reading an opinion that the difference between an agnostic and an atheist is guts, but to be fair, a person can be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist.

Being agnostic is merely a statement that one cannot have true knowledge of the existence of God, or gods.  In other words it is not about a belief,  it's about knowledge.

Being skeptical just means that one doubts and/or question what others might accept blindly.  Yes it's often about religion but not exclusively.

Can one be a skeptical theist? Yes, I think so, but probably not for long.  Skeptical agnostic? It all makes sense, since you don't have to be one or the other.  The positions aren't mutually exclusive.  If you are an atheist you cannot be a theist, but this is not the case between atheism, agnosticism and skepticism.  You cannot however be a skeptic and believe everything you are told without proof.

Surely if we cannot prove there is, or is not, a god, we should be agnostic.

The burden of proof is upon the person making the claim.  Gnostics claim that they have spiritual or intellectual knowledge about the existence of god(s), but fail to produce evidence of said knowledge.  Agnostics claim that we cannot know, which can be justified.  Atheists reject the claims of theists based upon their lack of evidence.

I am definitely a major religion atheist though.

You sound like an Atheist to me!  Good man!  But it's OK if you want to call yourself an Agnostic, although, in my opinion, it would be more accurate to call yourself an Agnostic Atheist (based on some of your statements).  If you drop the Atheist for social reasons, it's also OK.  Call yourself what you want, just don't allow others to label you incorrectly.  Hope I haven't done exactly that!

I'm a bit of a rebel and like to see people's expressions when they find out I'm an Atheist.  (No - it's not the reason why I'm an Atheist!) Most of them know nothing about the subject and think I'm a devil worshipper or something.  If they are true human beings, with constructive personalities, they will try to find out a little more about my position and ultimately accept me for who I am.  If not, it saves me great disappointment in the future.

For the same reason, I like garlic.  It has a similar effect on pesky people and emotional vampires alike.

Kind regards,

Sentinel

[Anacoluthon64]

As Bertrand Russell (approximately) put it, one should be as agnostic about the existence of a personal deity as one should be about the possibility of a teapot being in orbit around Neptune.  That is to say, if the probability of something being true is vanishingly small, one will do far better if one behaves as if it is false.  This is where good, practical, empirically derived judgement tempers the uncertainty of scepticism in its original purist form.

'Luthon64

[AcinonyxScepticus]

Excellent points Sentinel and 'Luthon.

Atheism is not about knowing that there are no gods, it is about making the safe assumption based on the overwhelming unlikelihood of it being true.

Here is an example which Richard Dawkins presented in his God Delusion lecture at UC Berkeley, paraphrased because I have the video at home, not with me at the moment.

Imagine a scale where all people are compared with one another in their varying degrees of belief or scepticism about any god.  If you are a "1" then you know, with all certainty that a god definitely exists.  On the other end, if you are an "7" then you know with certainty that there are definitely no gods.  If you are a "4" then you believe that the likelihood of a god existing is exacly the same as the likelihood that a god doesn't exist.  "I am a 6".

This coming from Dawkins; the most famous millitant atheist (and probably the most famous anti-theist) at the moment and author of The God Delusion.  He is not saying that he has doubts as an atheist; he is saying that we are all agnostics to some degree.

James

[wandapec]

I think you have all pretty much covered it. The definitions vary but it is all semantics.

he is saying that we are all agnostics to some degree

I agree with what Richard Dawkins said in his book and lecture (I always enjoy his lectures) - the probability of the existence on a god is not 50:50. Given the evidence (Or lack of) I, personally, would put the probability of the existence of a god at about a 6.8 on the Dawkin's scale! I would apply the same level of agnostisim to the dragon in my garage, Russell's teapot, the IPU and any other imaginary entity that can be thought up by anyone upward of the age of 3 or 4.

When I speak about religion, some people tell me that I sound like an ATHEIST, as if it's the biggest insult they can think of.  My answer is always: "YES, and proud of it!".

Well done. I think this kind of comment is probably best example of a complete lack of understanding people have of what an atheist is. Still back in the 1800's! Summed up by this cartoon. There is nothing better than confidently telling someone you are an atheist when on meeting them they had automatically assumed you were as deluded as they were, especially if they really enjoy your company!

Atheists reject the claims of theists based upon their lack of evidence.

I assume the "their" in this case refers to theists?

Can one be a skeptical theist?

For Christians, the first part would only apply Monday to Saturday. On Sunday, men lived to be 900 (Without medical aid), people turned to salt for looking at stuff - "Whoosh", and parthenogenesis in humans is the order of the day.

[Bullitt]

You guys make really good points.  Thanks for your inputs.  Sentinel, I especially appreciate the time you took to write a response to clarify the different standpoints.  I agree with you, a sceptical theist is someone that will soon become an agnostic or atheist.  It happened to me that way.  Once I decided I was agnostic I was a happier person.

I have always understood an atheist to be someone that is convinced there is no greater being (a 7 by Dawkins), hence me labelling myself an agnostic.  The Oxford English Dictionary defines an agnostic as "One who holds that the existence of anything beyond and behind material phenomena is unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are subjects of which we know nothing."  It also defines an atheist to be "One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God."

That would make me an atheistic agnostic (or sceptical agnostic) I suppose, because my core opinion is that we cannot know anything beyond material phenomena, but I am also sceptical about the existence of a god.  Like wandapec states, it is just semantics.

I'm busy downloading the Dawkins talk and will watch it this weekend.  I suppose if you went according to his scale I would be a 5 or 6.

[Bullitt]

Here is an example which Richard Dawkins presented in his God Delusion lecture at UC Berkeley, paraphrased because I have the video at home, not with me at the moment.

Imagine a scale where all people are compared with one another in their varying degrees of belief or scepticism about any god.  If you are a "1" then you know, with all certainty that a god definitely exists.  On the other end, if you are an "7" then you know with certainty that there are definitely no gods.  If you are a "4" then you believe that the likelihood of a god existing is exacly the same as the likelihood that a god doesn't exist.  "I am a 6".

I watched the lecture this morning.  Thanks for pointing me to the link James.  He put into words many of the things I have been thinking.  I thoroughly enjoyed it and will be showing some of my like-minded friends the talk.  From what he said I would go with calling myself a 6 too.  I would recommend that everyone watch the lecture.

[skepticdetective]

I was born an atheist and my parents never tried to change that. I guess I am extremely lucky. I have great parents who would answer ANY question I posed. They even allowed me to attend a bible camp when I was 11. I did this because I had friends who were going and it sounded like fun. Luckily it did not have a lasting effect on my religious standpoint.

This life-long familiarity with atheism has allowed me to be very comfortable with it. I do not need "spiritual guidance" and I do not crave it. I have a no-nonsense approach to life and this has led me naturally to enjoy skepticism and Love science.

I have a 3 year old son now and I only hope that I can teach him as well as my folks taught me

[scienceteacherinexile]

Finally back, did anyone miss me
I grew up in rural Texas which means creationist kooks are in the majority.  Not your average christian, but extremely fundamental.
I think if I went back now they would think me some kind of monster.
Now, if someone back there (or here for that matter) says "I'll pray for you", I say "Thanks, and throw some salt over your shoulder as well just to be sure."
I think from the time I found out about Santa Clause I became disillusioned with the whole concept of a god.  However, because of the teachings from my church, I was shit scared of being charbroiled for eternity.  For that reason alone I wrestled with my faith for years, but I was good at reasoning so it slipped quite a bit.  With Biology as my minor in University, the last remnants were swept away.
I do remember a while back when having drinks with friends I have known for years they seemed suprised (but not shocked) to find out that I am an atheist.  In fact my exact words were that I am a godless atheist which of course is redundant, but I like to hammer the point home that yes we exist, and there is nothing wrong with it.