Does evolution happen by chance?

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mentari (April 03, 2009, 14:16:14 PM):
..... in an attempt to discredit evolution. ..... criticism of the theory itself.....

As I explained on Wikipedia and scratchpad a tautology is not circular reasoning. What theory precisely am I attacking? You still have not given me the formally established , defined theory of evolution. It doesn't exist on Wikipedia because ToE redirects to Evolution and "evolution" is a word not a theory. Evolution the word can be used in multiple contexts, it isn't a theory.
bluegray (April 03, 2009, 14:36:51 PM):
I think the answer to the question posed in this topic was given in the first few posts. I don't see the need to continue with the direction the topic has taken. A final link which was probably posted already, and will no doubt not be satisfactory to mentari, as he will likely label it as a tautology as well:

Introduction to Evolutionary Biology on

Go read it, go read the research and books at the bottom of that article. I think we all hear you loud and clear, and not for the first time (see the links to other threads where this was already discussed that Luthon posted).

I'm not closing the thread, but unless you have something new to add to the discussion, don't bother.
Mefiante (April 03, 2009, 17:12:33 PM):
Despite evolution having been described to this person amply and repeatedly and in many different ways, mentari/metari1/backspace has a proven track record of saying anything in an attempt to discredit evolution. (S)He seems to have a particular liking for the idea that criticising the rigour of the terminology is criticism of the theory itself.
Evolution the word can be used in multiple contexts, it isn't a theory.
The trivial absurdity and absurd triviality of your argument should now be clear even to the most obtuse reader.

You would, I’m sure, defend the idea that the Christian bible must be read with due regard for context. Why then do you so hypocritically seek to deny scientists the same privilege when it comes to their own jargon?

I really do rest my case except for one thing: Who is the individual who influenced your mind to think so irrelevantly?

mentari (April 03, 2009, 19:09:22 PM):
Go read it, go read the research and books at the bottom of that article. I think we all hear you loud and clear, and not for the

This is a logical fallacy know as shifting the burden of proof: You claim to have the Theory of Evolution, it is for you to tell me who established it and where, not me. Show me the page and the Nobel prize that was awarded to the author for the formal establishment of the ToE and what exactly is this theory.

Futuyma, Douglas J. (1997). Evolutionary Biology. Sunderland, Mass.: Sinauer Associates.

Ridley, Mark. (2003). Evolution. Boston: Blackwell Scientific.

Hartl, Daniel L. & Andrew G. Clark. (1997). Principles of Population Genetics. Sunderland, Mass.: Sinauer Associates.

Crow, James F. & Motoo Kimura. (1970). Introduction to Population Genetics Theory. Edina, Minn.: Burgess Publishing Company.

Graur, Dan & Wen-Hsiung Li. (2000). Fundamentals of Molecular Evolution. Sunderland, Mass.: Sinauer Associates.

Lewontin, Richard C. (1974). The Genetic Basis of Evolutionary Change. New York: Columbia Univ. Press.

Gillespie, John H. (1997). The Causes of Molecular Evolution. New York: Oxford Univ. Press.

Golding, Brian, ed. (1994). Non-Neutral Evolution. Boston: Chapman and Hall.

Kimura, Motoo. (1983). The Neutral Theory of Molecular Evolution. Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge Univ. Press.

Endler, John A. (1986). Natural Selection in the Wild. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton Univ. Press.

Eldredge, Niles. (1989). Macroevolutionary Dynamics. New York: McGraw-Hill.

Cowen, Richard. (2004). History of Life. Boston: Blackwell Scientific.

Dawkins, Richard. (1987). The Blind Watchmaker. New York: W.W. Norton.

Kitcher, Philip. (1982). Abusing Science. Cambridge, Mass.: MIT Press.

Wilson, Edward O. (1992). The Diversity of Life. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard Belknap.

Darwin, Charles. (1859). On the Origin of Species.

Darwin, Charles. (1871). The Descent of Man.

Haldane, J.B.S. (1932). The Causes of Evolution. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton Univ. Press (reprinted 1990).

Simpson, George G. (1944). Tempo and Mode in Evolution. New York: Columbia Univ. Press.

Mayr, Ernst E. (1982). The Growth of Biological Thought. Cambridge, Mass: Harvard Belknap.

Provine, William B. (2001). The Origins of Theoretical Population Genetics. Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press.
Rigil Kent (April 03, 2009, 20:12:06 PM):
At the risk of committing an unspeakable logical fallacy, guys, I think we've been had. Surely this must be an elaborate April fool's prank?

Nice one! :)



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