South Africa Flag logo

South African Skeptics

December 14, 2019, 17:10:56 PM
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
Go to mobile page.
News: Follow saskeptics on twitter.
   
   Skeptic Forum Board Index   Help Forum Rules Search GoogleTagged Login Register Chat Blogroll  
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic:

Invitation to a pox party in my news feed

 (Read 5249 times)
Description: anti vaxxer shenanigans
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Whyohwhy
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 25



« on: July 28, 2014, 14:27:44 PM »

I know that mothers are battling to get hold of the chicken pox vaccine at the moment, but I was horrified to see a mother (who is a nurse) post that her child has chicken pox, who wants to come around for a pox party.  Initially I thought she was being facetious, but no, people began commenting - some that they were ill and couldn't cope with sick kids right then, others that they were interested.  When she liked their comments and indicated she'd chat further with them, I realised she was serious. 

I don't understand the logic behind not vaccinating your child but then attempting to infect them with the actual disease.  Why? 

I know that complications from chicken pox are fairly rare and that the chicken pox vaccine is on the EPI and not the government schedule, but I'm annoyed with the whole lack of logic in deliberately attempting to infect your child with a vaccine preventable disease, and that a nurse (who works for a medical aid - though not the big blue one, but a big one none the less) is recruiting children to be infected.  For shame!

I've noticed our country's anti vaxxers getting more and more organised, and although I know that we don't have the problems the USA does with anti vaxxers, they're getting their message out with facebook groups which sell themselves as sharing information on vaccines and not being anti vaxxine. 

I'm feeling quite irritated right now, and I've clicked the unfriend button - promptly, I gave up reasoning with nutters long ago, I got tired of the attacks in my personal messages and on twitter, so I still post informative information on vaccines, but I just don't respond to attacks from the vocal minority of anti vaxxers (which sadly seems to be growing). 
Logged
brianvds
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +14/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 1866



WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2014, 14:56:01 PM »

I think the reasoning behind pox parties is just to get it over and done with: if you have three children, you go infect them all and they get the disease and get it over with. Also, the older you are when you get chicken pox, the more unpleasant the symptoms, or so they say.

But the disease isn't risk free, and it's probably better to get your child vaccinated.
Logged
st0nes
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +10/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 942



mark.widdicombe1
WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 15:17:16 PM »

But the disease isn't risk free, and it's probably better to get your child vaccinated.
This is the problem.  Chicken pox just doesn't go away; it can reappear in later life as shingles--very unpleasant indeed. No parent should deliberately expose their child to this virus.
Logged
cr1t
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +4/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 544



cr1t
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 16:28:36 PM »

wtf, Gosh I've heard of them before, I'm sad to here the  idea has spread here, now.
Logged
brianvds
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +14/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 1866



WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 18:43:17 PM »

It appears that it is not because of the anti-vaxxers that people fail to vaccinate against chickenpox. At least, judging by the Wiki article on the vaccine, I do not get the impression that there is much controversy over it, at least not of the same sort as there is surrounding the MMR vaccine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine

I think most people just do not realize that chickenpox is potentially dangerous, or that it can cause shingles years later.
Logged
Whyohwhy
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 25



« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2014, 21:06:40 PM »

The antivaxxers I come across are anti all vaccines, not just MMR, all vaccines in their entirety are seen as a big conspiracy theory, big pHARMa profits you see. Natural immunity (getting the disease and risking serious complications) is seen as preferable to injecting "toxins" into their special snowflake and  despite relying on herd immunity, there is denial that community immunity exists. Yes, people seem to forget about shingles.

If you want to see what insanity prevails in the SA antivaxxers, have a look at Vaccine Awareness South Africa

« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 21:19:19 PM by Whyohwhy, Reason: To fix auto correct errors that made sentence nonsensical. » Logged
Whyohwhy
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 25



« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2014, 21:15:50 PM »

Here are links to their FB page and their closed group.

https://www.facebook.com/VASAvax?ref=ts&fref=ts

https://www.facebook.com/groups/vaccineawarenessvasa/?ref=ts&fref=ts

If you have a look on any FB parenting group, any comment about vaccines draws comments about how there is formaldehyde in the vaccine, point out it is less than in  a pear and the reply is that  a pear is not injected into the blood stream (surely once digested the nutrients end up in your blood stream? I just took biology to matrix, maybe I missed something?) and so the comments go on, with the reasons for rejecting vaccines getting more ridiculous and more easily debunked until the ad hominems start. It is frustrating dealing with fact averse people.

I certainly wouldn't expose my children to feeling rotten for two weeks, itching like mad, risking the small risk of death, getting scars, and being at risk of shingles just to get it over with, when it could just vaccinate them.

P.s how do I get the yellow block around quoted text? Is it ok and readable to copy and paste in italics and with quotation marks. Sorry, I'm new here.(actually, think I've figured it out.)
Logged
BoogieMonster
NP complete
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +19/-1
Offline Offline

Posts: 3128



« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2014, 22:10:01 PM »

Code:
[quote=Whyohwhy]Here are links to their FB page and their closed group.[/quote]

Gives me

Quote from: Whyohwhy
Here are links to their FB page and their closed group.

The forward slash "/" indicates the end of the quoted block. You can also click "Insert quote"/"Quote" at the top right of a post to get it pre-formatted for you. Often I'll do this and cut the text down to the part I really wanted to quote.

You can also have nested quotes, and newlines are ignored:

Code:
[quote=BoogieMonster]
[quote=Whyohwhy]
Here are links to their FB page and their closed group.
[/quote]

Bunch of nutters!
[/quote]

Gives us:
Quote from: BoogieMonster
Quote from: Whyohwhy
Here are links to their FB page and their closed group.

Bunch of nutters!
Logged
Whyohwhy
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 25



« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 23:05:17 PM »

Thank you Smiley and apologies for my ignorance.
Logged
Whyohwhy
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 25



« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2014, 23:10:11 PM »



Bunch of nutters!
[/quote]

Sadly they're rather dangerous as they spread their lack,of understanding and half truths around.
Logged
Whyohwhy
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 25



« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2014, 23:10:50 PM »

Damn, did it wrong. I will keep trying!
Logged
brianvds
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +14/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 1866



WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 04:12:19 AM »

Quote from: Whyohwhy
If you have a look on any FB parenting group, any comment about vaccines draws comments about how there is formaldehyde in the vaccine, point out it is less than in  a pear and the reply is that  a pear is not injected into the blood stream (surely once digested the nutrients end up in your blood stream? I just took biology to matrix, maybe I missed something?) and so the comments go on, with the reasons for rejecting vaccines getting more ridiculous and more easily debunked until the ad hominems start. It is frustrating dealing with fact averse people.

Recent research has indicated that when you give such people a bunch of dry facts, they are in fact LESS likely to be convinced. There is apparently no point arguing with them, except in so far as it might show potential converts to their position that they are nuts.

Lucky thing we at least have Darwin on our side... :-)
Logged
cr1t
Hero Member
*****

Skeptical ability: +4/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 544



cr1t
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2014, 09:37:28 AM »

Lucky thing we at least have Darwin on our side... :-)

That rather nonchalant saying missed the greater reason why we upset with people not vaccinating there children.

In the end it's innocent kids paying the price for there parents stupidity
or actually other kids in there community paying the price for ignorance.

If somebody started a group to combat anti vaccination in this country
I would donate, It does need somebody who knows how to do these things properly.

Logged
Whyohwhy
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 25



« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2014, 12:12:13 PM »

Recent research has indicated that when you give such people a bunch of dry facts, they are in fact LESS likely to be convinced. There is apparently no point arguing with them, except in so far as it might show potential converts to their position that they are nuts."

I've read articles on how some of the attempts to clarify mistruths result in reinforcing them. 


"If somebody started a group to combat anti vaccination in this country
I would donate, It does need somebody who knows how to do these things properly."
[/i]

I've got the organisational skills to start something, but I'm not from a science or medical background (I've done commerce and psychology - science lite?) so would have to have help for fact checking.  Much of the misinformation is spread on Facebook and Twitter and then filters out to parenting groups, but I find that often at the real life groups, if someone makes an uninformed anti vaccine comment that there is usually someone who gently responds with better information (or a look of horror).  On Facebook and Twitter, if you post anything positive about vaccination or respond to misinformation, there is usually a vicious back lash and posts to all sorts of nonsense to support the argument - you tube videos, natural news, whale.to etc.  I've managed to make a few friends who I can tag who have statistical knowledge (mine is um, sketchier than it should be, but enough to know the anti vaxxers are wrong), and can debunk their interpretation of graphs and figures.  Unfortunately many of the anti vaxxers suffer from severe Dunning-Kruger effect, so it really is like talking to a brick wall, but it is the others who are reading and following and perhaps sitting on the fence who are really being spoken to.  Unfortunately many of the reasonable people who do have the knowledge and information get tired of the ALL CAPS RESPONSES and the ad hominems and just tired of debunking the same nonsense over and over.  So long as I had back up, I could set up a page and a group.
I think it needs time and expertise donation rather than monetary donation.  There are some excellent resources available overseas, we just need to tailor it more for an  SA market. 

As I've typed, I think I've realised I must go ahead and set up and then let you know Grin and others who are interested can help me from there. 

"Lucky thing we at least have Darwin on our side... :-)"Indeed - however, the problem is that there are people who cannot be vaccinated because of illnesses they have or other reasons who rely on community immunity and there are people who don't have an immune response to the vaccines and can be affected by our Darwin Award Winners decisions.  Look at what has happened in Wales and the USA with whooping cough and measles.  The problem with these people as well is that they spread the misinformation, which can sound quite reasonable - especially as they tend to quote from package inserts (with complete lack of understanding of what they're reading - don't trust big pharma, but big pharma's package inserts are infallible proof  Huh?)  what I've read is that the first doubters tend to be those with undergraduate degrees and then it starts to spread out from there until you have pockets of mothers who all subsist on kale, coconut oil and avoiding vaccines. 

I'll find some links to the American sites that exist to combat some of this nonsense and see what can be used to fuel ideas for local conditions. 

I know someone who didn't want to vaccinate her children because of her fears bred from the information she'd heard, but decided that becasue we have such poverty problems and that if others caught the diseases from her children she would feel guilty, she vaccinated them.  If only that attitude could prevail amongst all anti vaxxers - but sadly it doesn't seem to, there seems to be such encouragement that everyone should forego vaccines - and when you're relying on herd immunity, that is a rather silly thing to be encouraging. 



 
Logged
Whyohwhy
Newbie
*

Skeptical ability: +1/-0
Offline Offline

Posts: 25



« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2014, 12:43:16 PM »

Ok, here are a few of the good sites out there (the first two are Facebook):

https://www.facebook.com/events/1431442290477181/1434844186803658/?comment_id=1434844220136988&ref=notif&notif_t=like#!/RtAVM?fref=ts

This one corrects all incorrect memes, including anti vaccine ones:

https://www.facebook.com/events/1431442290477181/1434844186803658/?comment_id=1434844220136988&ref=notif&notif_t=like#!/LDLMemes?fref=ts

I was requested to write articles for these two sites, but mine are very weak compared to what other mothers have written.  These are both parent based blogs.  However, both have medical panels who check through posts before they're posted.  I think we have too few people who would be willing to write regularly enough for running anything like these. 

http://momswhovax.blogspot.com/

http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/

I have noticed some really good articles on vaccines in You Magazine, the Clicks Club Card Magazine, Child Magazine and Your Baby quite recently, which is a good start.  Unfortunately some time ago Living and Loving did one which included quotes from homepaths which said they weren't anti vaccine, but suggested their nosodes were vaccines, and well, we know what would appear on a homeopathic product's ingredients list don't we?

There are then wonderful links I've found and use when seeing bull (of course their tone is found to be at fault if someone doesn't like what they say).
Here is one as a sample.

http://antiantivax.flurf.net/

There are plenty of resources that are publicly available to refer people to, I think what is really needed is a Facebook page that puts the information together and is easily accessible to South African parents, and a group where they can post questions or check things they're concerned about.  Many of the anti vaxxers make people fear asking doctors these quesstions.  I've been quite horrified since becoming a parent, to discover how gullible some very intelligent people are - how they will question and seek information on some topics, but on others blindly follow what some person who thinks preservatives in vaccines are evil toxins but happily uses botox tells them. 
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
  Print  


 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
Page created in 0.404 seconds with 23 sceptic queries.
Google visited last this page February 04, 2019, 18:07:09 PM
Privacy Policy